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The rise of user-hostile software

den.dev

101–110 of 303 posts

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not "needs of developers" the problem, but the "needs of product manager, marketing, c-level asshole". Not entirely. Developers still make choices to use slow and bloated software stacks to save themselves time, which definitely negatively affects the user experience.

What stacks? I've yet to encounter a popular stack claiming itself as slow and bloated. React? Angular? Electron? There are very slim and fast apps built with those stacks. And if someone built slow Electron app, I'm sure that he would build slow Qt app (not sure if Qt considered slim nowadays). It comes either from lack of experience or lack of focus on performance. And that does not depend on stack.

I'll admit, this was my first chuckle out loud of the day. No stack would intentionally label itself as such, while basically all of them eventually become that. If you bundle the world in your package, expect bloated outcomes, in all of its cyclically-dependent glory.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#102

Agreed on all points. Interesting to see this: > You can argue that all of this has existed for a very long time, back from the days of all kinds of toolbars and extensions that created multiple levels of address bar nesting in your web browser and taskbar. What I find ironic about the whole situation is, back then it was universally known that those toolbars and extensions are distributed by assholes. The whole soft…

We find ourselves in times where most mainstream software from renowned companies should be, by the standards of the toolbar era, classified as malware.

It's called Microsoft. Microsoft Windows 10, to be precise.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#103
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate my brother printer. Now I have to do some weird black magic that involves pulling out the power cable and paper tray and inserting the cable while holding some buttons in order for it to even turn on. A year earlier it suddenly stopped being able to print wirelessly and, as with all cartridge printers, the ink is crazy expensive. A month ago I bought an HP printer with an ink reservoir for my mother and it is…

When people talk about good reliable Brother printers they're always talking about their cheap laser line. Inkjet printers exist in two forms: Quality photo printers and complete garbage. They are not for documents or other normal printing, that's what laser printers are for. Your primary printer should not be an inkjet unless you only ever print color photos.

> Your primary printer should not be an inkjet unless you only ever print color photos.

And unless you print photos very regularly or sometimes need them right-this-instant-gods-damn-it, you are usually better off going to a local shop and having them printed there on better paper with better equipment, cheaper.

My main printer is a relatively inexpensive[†] laser, that has a true-black-only mode.

[†] not _absolutely_inexpensive, because I wanted the luxury of automatic duplex and the cheapest models out there are rather unreliable or nearly as expensive/inconvenient to keep running long-term as some inkjets.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#105

This flowchart is true for many things... even webpages: How many users actually wanted to subrscribe to your newsletter the first time they visited your page, before they even read the first article there? How many first-time visitors actually want to donate money? ...

I don't understand this. I visit a site I've never been to before and immediately a popup takes over along these lines. Do those really convert? I can't imagine they do, but they are also everywhere so they must be effective to some degree?

I feel like The Guardian's approach is better, after a while they bring up a banner down at the bottom that says (paraphrased) "hey you've read x articles, we want to stay independent, can you help us?"

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#106
post #2

With all the praise Brother laser printers get for being just a damn printer, I wonder what the end game is for some of those businesses. I can understand that monetisation and user well-being can be at odds sometimes (e.g. with free apps and services), but surely a generic hardware manufacturer wants to ensure a generic experience? This is why I tend to buy things that use generic, open standards. I don't trust some…

> I wonder what the end game is for some of those businesses.

The end game is often an annual bonus for a decision maker at the business that doesn't think they will be there in 2 years when there might be fallout. The incentive is short term gain for me, I wouldn't be here in the long run so whey should I care about the long run.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#108
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people talk about good reliable Brother printers they're always talking about their cheap laser line. Inkjet printers exist in two forms: Quality photo printers and complete garbage. They are not for documents or other normal printing, that's what laser printers are for. Your primary printer should not be an inkjet unless you only ever print color photos.

> Your primary printer should not be an inkjet unless you only ever print color photos. And unless you print photos very regularly or sometimes need them right-this-instant-gods-damn-it, you are usually better off going to a local shop and having them printed there on better paper with better equipment, cheaper. My main printer is a relatively inexpensive[†] laser, that has a true-black-only mode. [†] not _absolutely…

> And unless you print photos very regularly or sometimes need them right-this-instant-gods-damn-it, you are usually better off going to a local shop and having them printed there on better paper with better equipment, cheaper.

If I had any need for colour prints, it would be a viable option since there is a shop a block away. For many people who regularly print in colour, the cost of the printer could be justified by the time it takes to stop off at the shop to pick up the prints. That being said, I don't see consumer grade colour printers fitting this role.

Convenience is why I maintain a relatively inexpensive laser printer. I could easily print off 10 pages per week of work related documents at work, but racing across the building only to discover the printer isn't working (which it isn't about 10% of the time) and having to work around that problem for a good chunk of the day isn't worth the trouble of saving about $50/year.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#109
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I blame it on web development, pure and simple. The relentless drive for analytics and advertising is what brought the acceptance of spying.

I blame marketing departments being given too much (read: almost any) control over product development. No developer cares about the level of analytics being pushed today, and unless they're profit sharing they probably don't care about the ads either. Those anti-features are there because marketing departments want them there and have enough power to get what they want. Don't let marketing make product decisions.

The underlying cause here is unbound and often unregulated profit motive with the farse that competition self regulates. At some scales competition self regulates but at scale we see now, it simply doesn't. There are too many barriers and too strong of foothold in markets.

As a result it trickles down, how can we improve our revenue stream. More data, more ads, more nickel and diming consumers, how can we lockdown control of this product/service, charge more for the same and even more for less.

Developers are, in my opinion, just along for the ride and not making these decisions so much as allowing and enabling them to happen. In the world of professions software engineering pays quite well and it pays well for a variety of reasons. People take lucrative positions and decide, reasonably, that what they're being told or pressured to do isn't that bad. It's not like the holocaust where they're turning a blind eye to genocide, they're turning a blind eye to corporate, monopolistic, and oligopic market abuses because at the end of they day they get to live comfortably.

I develop garbage I don't agree with often. I reduced my comp level to have more leverage to haggle against questionable practices but even then I still have to do some questionable things. For developers it's a choice of following along and being paid well or taking a hit and working somewhere that comps a hit less but doesn't product hostile products. I have nothing against those who choose to enable these business practices because they're building financial security in a world we've created that says these practices are OK. Businesses are sort of doing the same but they're more proactive in shaping the policy that allows these practices, so they have real responsibility here. Consumers have a responsibility as well by continuing to buy garbage they don't need that uses these practices. Voters have some responsibility for pushing politicians in who bend to the will of businesses to allow deregulation or prevent regulation for these practices. Politicians have blame for the ethical flexibility to let lobbyists and businesses incentivize them to represent businesses more than their voter base.

We have a mess on our hands with everyone having a little bit of blame here but the biggest responsibility I believe falls on large businesses and the capital holders behind them setting most of this in motion.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#110
I think the entire argument falls apart at the Flowchart presented:

"Would any user benefit from this?"

Why? Because its trivially easy to say those shitty additions help a user, satisfying the check and throwing you into "Build It" territory.

Do users know how to navigate their local network to upload data to a folder? Not all of them, hook it into a cloud service. Do all users know how to download the right BIOS for their mobo and execute the update? No, make an app. Do users even know what version of OS they're on? Nope, better make something platform agnostic so electron it is!

I'm not all in on FOSS, but I do try to support them when appropriate. I think that ecosystem does a decent job of giving the user control over what's happening, but that comes with the obvious drawbacks of having a higher barrier to entry. I can figure these things out, but my wife can't... my mom can't.

At the same time some of the examples given live in two different realms. A calculator accessing your contacts & location is a different case than your dashcam wanting to ease the backup process. A mobo bios update is different than ads in your video driver installer.

I don't pretend to offer realistic solutions. I think I'm a bit pessimistic that our hacker culture will collectively decide we need to focus on user-first features and oust malicious developers looking to exploit the tech-illiterate. I've seen it too many times on hackernews that people will justify any action because it simplifies things now. I've never favored "move fast and break things" culture and butted heads with hackers who think regulation à la engineering code of ethics is detrimental to our profession.

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