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Valneva and Pfizer announce Phase 2 study for Lyme disease vaccine candidate

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Re: Valneva and Pfizer announce Phase 2 study for Lyme disease vaccine candidate

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One bad autoimmune reaction from a poorly engineered vaccine and the whole society will boycott the mRNA vaccines forever after. Safety is higher priority to ongoing viability than speed.

Safety and speed must usually be balanced in a trade-off, and we are actually used to it, that is why people drive a car, even though it comes with a risk of dying or being maimed. I have no doubt that some kind of safety-related trials must be run on boosters and that they will be run, but they will likely only take weeks in the future, not months.

You presume the time required is a function of something other than observing the physiologic reaction to the inoculation over an adequate period of time.

Re: Valneva and Pfizer announce Phase 2 study for Lyme disease vaccine candidate

#172

I'm confused. Where does this say the vaccine is mRNA? The Valneva VLA15 website explicitly states "VLA15 is a multivalent recombinant protein vaccine" [1], and the linked press release calls it a "investigational multivalent protein subunit vaccine". Does nobody actually read these things? See [2], "Subunit Vaccines". [1] https://valneva.com/research-development/lyme-disease/ [2] https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/v…

You are right. Perhaps people saw "Pfizer" and made some assumptions based on Pfizer's work with the BioNTech mRNA vaccine.

Here, the originator of the vaccine is Valneva, which started their phase 1 trial in 2017:

https://www.newsweek.com/lyme-disease-vaccine-valneva-fda-ap...

Re: Valneva and Pfizer announce Phase 2 study for Lyme disease vaccine candidate

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfounded claims from 100s of people developing imaginary autoimmune disorders? Mind you people are still getting compensated in court for autoimmune disorders arising from the Hep-B vaccine, even though no causal link was found. Just yesterday I had to accompany my sister to the phlebologist, because of severe side-effects from Pfizer, he told us he was seeing troves of patients for similar reasons even though offic…

> Just yesterday I had to accompany my sister to the phlebologist, because of severe side-effects from Pfizer, he told us he was seeing troves of patients for similar reasons even though officially no causal-link was established. This is the issue with correlation vs causation. When you look at sufficiently large group, like tens of millions of people, some percentage of them are going to die for various reasons. Som…

I'd imagine a phlebologist is in a good position to know the difference between correlation and causation with regards to their practice and their patient population.

Thanks for the links about VTE, that's interesting, I don't know if it's precisely what my sister has. Though I don't remember reading about it on any of the official websites I consulted regarding possible side-effects.

I'm mostly feeling dumb about convincing her using incomplete data at an age at which I'm not sure the vaccine is critical, the doctor having told me these side-effects are common and not being reported.

Re: Valneva and Pfizer announce Phase 2 study for Lyme disease vaccine candidate

#174

I'm confused. Where does this say the vaccine is mRNA? The Valneva VLA15 website explicitly states "VLA15 is a multivalent recombinant protein vaccine" [1], and the linked press release calls it a "investigational multivalent protein subunit vaccine". Does nobody actually read these things? See [2], "Subunit Vaccines". [1] https://valneva.com/research-development/lyme-disease/ [2] https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/v…

I've heard it described as such but, no, it seems to be a distinct if perhaps somewhat related type of vaccine? (UPDATED: It's not.) The company that actually created the vaccine is also unrelated to the company that developed the vaccine that Pfizer is currently distributing for COVID.

Re: Valneva and Pfizer announce Phase 2 study for Lyme disease vaccine candidate

#175
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it doesn't make sense in this context. They're literally changing nothing except the mRNA sequence. If a new vaccine is made by taking a gene sequence from a virus protein that's already in the wild, and packaging it into a delivery mechanism (LNP) that's already approved for another vaccine... If there are any strange reactions to the new spike protein, that would also be caused by the wild virus spike protein,…

You're making the incorrect assumption that catching some new, dangerous strain of COVID is a guarantee. It isn't. Pushing out a vaccine that causes harm, even if it's substantially less than the virus it protects against, is asking for a lot of trouble.

Consider two ratios:

Harm ratio = harm caused by vaccine / harm caused by virus

Exposure ratio = projected people who would be infected by the virus / projected people who would take the vaccine

In an airborne, high-R_0 pandemic situation, the exposure ratio is high enough that only one of two cases apply:

1) The potential health problems caused by small-scale exposure to the spike protein alone is relatively small compared to problems caused by infection, in which case vaccinate everyone. This is the current situation.

2) The potential health problems caused by small-scale exposure to the spike protein are significant (for example, hypothetical antibody cross-reactivity with a normal human protein, as mentioned in a parallel comment), in which case obviously don't vaccinate everyone, but lock down the world for a few weeks since having much of the world suffer autoimmune disease is untenable.

Re: Valneva and Pfizer announce Phase 2 study for Lyme disease vaccine candidate

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> covid has been a pathetic, fumbling showing, one that clearly reflects institutional decay and foreshadows future decline -- the reverse of the first situation Against a totally novel virus, we developed and widely deployed vaccines with efficacies beyond anyone’s wildest dreams using totally novel technology in the span of a year. Not sure that quite meets my definition of “pathetic.”

Not a totally novel virus. The reason why vaccines were developed within days of isolating the virus is because SARS-COV-2 is not that different from SARS-COV-1 and all the vaccine research efforts carried over. What was pathetic was the federal coordination - hesitation on travel restrictions, CDC response, recommendations against PPE… Lessons that could have been learned even from the 1918 pandemic were painfully i…

It's not surprising when you look at who was running the federal government at the time. If it wasn't a shitshow, there would have been something wrong in the universe.

Re: Valneva and Pfizer announce Phase 2 study for Lyme disease vaccine candidate

#177

I'm confused. Where does this say the vaccine is mRNA? The Valneva VLA15 website explicitly states "VLA15 is a multivalent recombinant protein vaccine" [1], and the linked press release calls it a "investigational multivalent protein subunit vaccine". Does nobody actually read these things? See [2], "Subunit Vaccines". [1] https://valneva.com/research-development/lyme-disease/ [2] https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/v…

You are right. Perhaps people saw "Pfizer" and made some assumptions based on Pfizer's work with the BioNTech mRNA vaccine. Here, the originator of the vaccine is Valneva, which started their phase 1 trial in 2017: https://www.newsweek.com/lyme-disease-vaccine-valneva-fda-ap...

It's not just the OP. I've heard from multiple sources that "Pfizer has an mRNA vaccine for Lyme in clinical trials." Somewhere along the line someone(s) saw Pfizer, vaccine, and put 1 and 1 together and got 3. And it spread. This is the first time I realized that's not true.

Re: Valneva and Pfizer announce Phase 2 study for Lyme disease vaccine candidate

#178
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was one but it was taken off the market. It's a bit of a sad story because it worked but because of unfounded claims that it had side effects, it lost trust of the public: "In clinical trials involving more than 10,000 people, the vaccine, called LYMErix, was found to confer protective immunity to Borrelia in 76% of adults and 100% of children with only mild or moderate and transient adverse effects. [...] Subs…

Unfounded claims from 100s of people developing imaginary autoimmune disorders? Mind you people are still getting compensated in court for autoimmune disorders arising from the Hep-B vaccine, even though no causal link was found. Just yesterday I had to accompany my sister to the phlebologist, because of severe side-effects from Pfizer, he told us he was seeing troves of patients for similar reasons even though offic…

What I find interesting in the replies to your comment is that you are not taken at your word. I find we have lost our ability to do that.

You’re point is a strong one: shortly after preforming a very novel and rare action, your sister got ill with a rare disease. Her Dr. also mentioned that he had seen multiple patients who shortly after preforming a novel and novel action they got ill with a rare disease.

instead the replies boil down to:

1. Correlation doesn't imply causation

2. its psychosomatic.

Both annoy me.

1. People forget that the inverse is also true - causation doesn't imply correlation. For example, a quadratic relationship between independent and dependent variable will show zero correlation.

So why bother with correlation at all?

Because we need something to tell us where to start looking

Take the famous ice cream sales vs. robberies example. A lot is learned explaining the strong correlation between the two, even though there is no causation.

Of course, all the AI fanboys have no problem with flaky correlation as long as they predict well and they don't have to explain them.

2. This one really annoys me. While I believe that psychosomatic reactions are real and understudied (my great uncle - head Dr. at the largest hospital in a large city once told my dad that half of all ailments are cured with placeboes) this explanation is far less mechanistic and unscientific than blaming the vaccine itself.

The explanation boils down to “i don't want to believe its something I cherish, so Ill blame your hysterical sister instead”.

Psychosomatic digestive, blood pressure and heart problems are hardly surprising. All those systems are tightly connected and controlled by the mind. But vein issues? What is the mechanistic link between the mind and veins?

Re: Valneva and Pfizer announce Phase 2 study for Lyme disease vaccine candidate

#179
post #3

Ever since I moved to the 'first world' I've been scared of this disease. We don't have it where I come from and the long term effects sound straight up terrible.

Just don't go meandering in backwoods. You're not going to get it in any urban environment.

Re: Valneva and Pfizer announce Phase 2 study for Lyme disease vaccine candidate

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> covid has been a pathetic, fumbling showing, one that clearly reflects institutional decay and foreshadows future decline -- the reverse of the first situation Against a totally novel virus, we developed and widely deployed vaccines with efficacies beyond anyone’s wildest dreams using totally novel technology in the span of a year. Not sure that quite meets my definition of “pathetic.”

Not a totally novel virus. The reason why vaccines were developed within days of isolating the virus is because SARS-COV-2 is not that different from SARS-COV-1 and all the vaccine research efforts carried over. What was pathetic was the federal coordination - hesitation on travel restrictions, CDC response, recommendations against PPE… Lessons that could have been learned even from the 1918 pandemic were painfully i…

What makes you think the war wasn't won /despite/ pathetic and fumbling actions by leaders and governments? Ha, my country sent a small contingent (25k) to fight against the Axis in Italy. There were new uniforms made for this expeditionary force. Turns out they chose uniforms that closely matched that of the german uniforms (!).

From a book on this subject: "Another problem in the country's preparation was the production of uniforms similar to those of the German Army. 'They even threw rocks at us in Naples thinking we were the invaders'.”

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