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S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

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Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read upon the woman who brought down Standard Oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Tarbell#Standard_Oil It was basically a person that took on the largest monopoly in the world, and won. What we have today is a significantly larger momentum against tech monopolies. Look at some of the practices that brought the case forward: "An office boy working at the Standard Oil headquarters was given the job of dest…

> You should read upon the woman who brought down Standard Oil ... It was basically a person that took on the largest monopoly in the world, and won. She lost, she didn't win. Tarbell's confrontation with Rockefeller & Standard Oil and the legal actions of the authorities did the exact opposite of taking down Standard Oil. Standard Oil became even larger and more powerful. JD Rockefeller's family got far richer after…

"JD Rockefeller's family got far richer afterward."

"The strings continued to be pulled by the Rockefellers just the same (which you can read about in eg Titan by Ron Chernow). It's the Sorcerer's Apprentice outcome that people were so afraid of in the Microsoft anti-trust trial. Tarbell accomplished very little other than some harm to Rockfeller's reputation by exposing a few corners of that empire."

Yeah, right, Rockefeller's family got richer but the influence of the founders rarely lasts more than a few generations before either the company goes belly-up or it settles into the position of an also-ran.

Sometimes it isn't true but it's more often than not the case with companies that have come to power and riches on a new wave of tech where the founders were instrumental in developing the tech. There are hundreds of examples. Let me list just a few:

* Baldwin Locomotive Works: if you'd said to anyone in the U.S. in 1900 that this famous company would eventually go belly-up in a couple of generations then they'd have said you were mad and would have escorted you to the asylum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Locomotive_Works.

* The Stanley Rule & Level Co. Also around 1900 many would have almost said the same about Stanley, today it's hardly even an also-ran (it now just packages tools made by others). In the latter half of the 19th Century, Stanley along with other parts of New Britain's manufacturing sector was known as the Patent Center of the world. Stanley, had hundreds of patents and one of the key innovators of the time, Justus A. Traut, whose patents Stanley used, was known as the Patent King. Today, few techies would have ever heard of Justus Traut let alone know what he did for the U.S. tool industry.

https://datamp.org/patents/search/xrefCompany.php?source=xre...

https://www.datamp.org/patents/search/xrefPerson.php?id=124

https://eaiainfo.org/2018/01/06/trauts-model-shop-chamfer-pl... (BTW, note the quality of the patent drawings, all of Traut's patents are of this quality.)

* Marconi Company, aka the Wireless Telegraph & Signal Company. The once famous Marconi company was one of the biggest and most important electronic companies in the world, it's now long defunct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marconi_Company.

* RCA/Radio Corporation of America. Another Guglielmo Marconi operation with the once legendary/infamous David Sarnoff at its helm—it too is now defunct (1986). Not long ago this was the biggest electronics company in the world. For starters, by about 1970, RCA was the principle equipment supplier to over 80% of all radio and TV stations in the U.S. alone (supplying complete turnkey operations). RCA built everything from semiconductors—transistors, ICs (e.g.: its famous 4000 series CMOS) to broadcast videotape recorders to satellites and everything in between. Now there's nothing left but scraps—the best of which were picked up by other companies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA. (BTW, I'm quite familiar with this company as I once worked for it, excellent job it was too.)

Like it or not, Microsoft, Google and Apple will most likely go the same way for the very reason that those I've listed above have. In the end, history is against them surviving. Their tech will get tired and outdated and they will not adapt quickly enough (it's especially so with high tech after the founders leave or die off).

If you're a Microsoft, Google or Apple devotee then this seems an inconceivable outcome, for others it cannot come soon enough. However, the majority of the population couldn't give a damn either way.

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#102
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they really control 90%? This four year old article puts Steam game sales revenue at 13% of the total PC gaming sales revenue (and 18% of digital sales revenue): https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam-revenue-2017 Couldn't find any newer stats, but surely it hasn't grown from 13% to 90% in just four years?

According to Tim Sweeney, yes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2020/01/14/epic-games... "Exclusives have been critical in gaining momentum in the presence of a competitor that began 2019 with more than 90% market share"

How is he defining market share? I find that number hard to believe simply because Steam doesn't have some of the most popular PC games like Warcraft, Fortnite, and League of Legends.

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why would we help the non-US businesses compete with the home team?" Because your home team is trashing your house, racketeering your businesses and pissing in your garbage bins. They harm US consumers first and foremost

> They harm US consumers first and foremost Problem is, it's hard to find these consumers who are 'harmed' and clamoring for redress of their grievances. I'm one of them and I'm actually very happy with the value delivered per dollar in the existing mobile space. Other businesses harmed? Maybe, but if you think that Epic is going to drop their prices 30% in lockstep with a hypothetical elimination of app store fees,…

> if you think that Epic is going to drop their prices 30% in lockstep with a hypothetical elimination of app store fees, I have a bridge to sell you.

While not 30%, they did drop 20% when switching to their own payment processing [0]. And even if they didn't, more money to them allows them to hire more developers to make their games better for their customers.

[0]: https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/the-fortnite-m...

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#104
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They harm US consumers first and foremost Problem is, it's hard to find these consumers who are 'harmed' and clamoring for redress of their grievances. I'm one of them and I'm actually very happy with the value delivered per dollar in the existing mobile space. Other businesses harmed? Maybe, but if you think that Epic is going to drop their prices 30% in lockstep with a hypothetical elimination of app store fees,…

> if you think that Epic is going to drop their prices 30% in lockstep with a hypothetical elimination of app store fees, I have a bridge to sell you. While not 30%, they did drop 20% when switching to their own payment processing [0]. And even if they didn't, more money to them allows them to hire more developers to make their games better for their customers. [0]: https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/the-f…

I don't see what's stopping them from doing that right now, they're running very fat 43% profit margins currently in their tech sweatshop[1].

[1] https://www.polygon.com/2019/4/23/18507750/fortnite-work-cru...

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Success of South Korea was built on protectionism and dogfooding its companies.It worked for them, it worked for China and again it worked for Singapore. That pattern is clear and only those incompetent or weak were unable to resist big corporations.

These countries have terrible software. Korean uncompetitive local services never expand internationally

Agreed, they are almost universally badly written, uncompetitive, and basically only exist due to this protectionism.

I honestly don't know anyone that wants to use KR-specific services, including Koreans themselves. At least for this generation, they know that everything is surveilled on a level that even FAANG does not do - discussing questioning being LGBTQ with your friends gets sent to your parents, depression jokes get sent to your parents. Phones are keylogged, parents are notified if you search for things like 'pregnancy'. The mandatory by law first keylogging app also had so many vulnerabilities the government pulled it and told people to use others due to how bad its security model was.

Security is consistently and always an afterthought in SK, and I honestly don't know why. There are numerous anticheat providers based out of South Korea, and the engineering in them is always absolutely terrible. Like, indescribably bad. Unlike EasyAntiCheat or Battleye for instance, the KR ones frequently like things such as inventing your own crypto that's broken, sending PII and collecting user personal information, clipboard, files and sending them over the internet unencrypted to a bare Korea Telecom IP plaintext. They also love broken, vulnerable kernel drivers in everything that can be used as jumping points to execute high privilege code via vulnerabilities. And all of these are used with games that are badly written and full of holes as a bandage.

Free speech is incredibly chilled, commenting and talking is not permitted unless linked to a KSSN in some way (mobile phone, SMS verification, etc - all require KSSN). Heavy website censorship akin to the Chinese GFW exists (warning.or.kr hijack redirects).

Even people on the censorship committee get their comments taken down[0] and aren't allowed to speak badly about it.

[0] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/08/south-korea-only-thing...

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read upon the woman who brought down Standard Oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Tarbell#Standard_Oil It was basically a person that took on the largest monopoly in the world, and won. What we have today is a significantly larger momentum against tech monopolies. Look at some of the practices that brought the case forward: "An office boy working at the Standard Oil headquarters was given the job of dest…

> You should read upon the woman who brought down Standard Oil ... It was basically a person that took on the largest monopoly in the world, and won. She lost, she didn't win. Tarbell's confrontation with Rockefeller & Standard Oil and the legal actions of the authorities did the exact opposite of taking down Standard Oil. Standard Oil became even larger and more powerful. JD Rockefeller's family got far richer after…

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any anti-monopoly/trust action taken in the US that's been a net positive to the consumer. Can anyone point me to one?

Breaking up Ma Bell into baby Bells just created regional monopolies instead a national one. This was largely before my time, though. I've heard anecdotally that consumer prices went up as a result, but I don't know for certain.

I was negatively affected by AT&T being forced to divest their cable internet business, leading me to become a long-time Comcast customer through no desire of my own. Now, I'm back with AT&T with fiber to the home. Before AT&T ran fiber (just within the last 2 or 3 years), it was a choice between Comcast/Xfinity or terrible DSL.

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#107
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything was legal until it wasn't. It was the same for Standard oil before 1911: they said it's all legal to have such a monopoly on oil. For some people at the time, it was obvious this was an unfair advantage on the market, so they fought to make it illegal. It's the same now. Of course Google and Apple mostly respect the laws of the land, but if a large swath of the population/industry thinks they are unfair, t…

The reality is that there's a vocal minority (looks around here) and the vast majority of people couldn't give a shit less. Not once in my life has my dad, my grandma, or some random friend I met up with at a bar gone "jeez, Apple and Google sure do have a monopoly on pricing in their respective app stores and this harms me as a consumer". Nobody cares. In fact, most people probably think everything is amazing how it…

It's probably true that the vast majority of people don't have an awareness of the impact and/or have little care but that doesn't make the issues unsubstantial.

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#108
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything was legal until it wasn't. It was the same for Standard oil before 1911: they said it's all legal to have such a monopoly on oil. For some people at the time, it was obvious this was an unfair advantage on the market, so they fought to make it illegal. It's the same now. Of course Google and Apple mostly respect the laws of the land, but if a large swath of the population/industry thinks they are unfair, t…

The reality is that there's a vocal minority (looks around here) and the vast majority of people couldn't give a shit less. Not once in my life has my dad, my grandma, or some random friend I met up with at a bar gone "jeez, Apple and Google sure do have a monopoly on pricing in their respective app stores and this harms me as a consumer". Nobody cares. In fact, most people probably think everything is amazing how it…

>Not once in my life has my dad, my grandma, o

Neither did any consumer complain to EU about credit card processing fees. Because they dont know. But EU business did. Just the same as App business in other country that are complaining now.

And EU took action on Visa and MasterCard processing fees.

And is the same argument, It is Apple's App Store, they can do what ever they want with it. Fine. Perfectly valid argument. But it is also EU's Market ( or in this case South Korean Market ), if Apple dont like it, do what the MacRumors comments have been telling Apple to do, Pull out of the EU and South Korean market to retaliate.

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should actually look at Standard Oil - it lowered prices, increased access, and by the time it was broken up was already losing market share and was not nearly as dominant. As with most anti-trust arguments -- market domination is temporary unless granted by the government, e.g. AT&T. In general it is sour grapes from those who can't compete.

You should look at Standard Oil. Yes, it lowered prices and increased access. And it did things that were clearly blatantly unfair competition. For one example, it demanded kickbacks from railroads on oil shipments - all oil shipments, including competitors'. It's pretty hard for a competitor to be able to compete in that environment.

If you're referring to drawbacks - then you have to ask, why did the railroads grant them? Why would other oil shipments pay a higher rate?

Is it because the volume and stability standard oil offered, as well as ownership of tankers and other critical infrastructure needed to be compensated for?

Once again, their market share was falling while these programs were going on so clearly it didn't hamper competition.

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You should read upon the woman who brought down Standard Oil ... It was basically a person that took on the largest monopoly in the world, and won. She lost, she didn't win. Tarbell's confrontation with Rockefeller & Standard Oil and the legal actions of the authorities did the exact opposite of taking down Standard Oil. Standard Oil became even larger and more powerful. JD Rockefeller's family got far richer after…

"JD Rockefeller's family got far richer afterward." "The strings continued to be pulled by the Rockefellers just the same (which you can read about in eg Titan by Ron Chernow). It's the Sorcerer's Apprentice outcome that people were so afraid of in the Microsoft anti-trust trial. Tarbell accomplished very little other than some harm to Rockfeller's reputation by exposing a few corners of that empire." Yeah, right, Ro…

I should learn never to read my posts after the editing period ends as I inevitability find unfixable typos. That 'principle' one grates badly.:-)
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