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EU to make Bitcoin traceable, ban anonymous crypto wallets

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231–240 of 267 posts

Re: EU to make Bitcoin traceable, ban anonymous crypto wallets

#231
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was technically possible but nobody seriously did it because the transactions were very slow and fees were massive compared to everything else, not to mention that the deflationary design meant that anyone who did would be mocked for not having held on until the value went up. Remember all of those comments about people buying a pizza with what a few years later would have been thousands of dollars? That sealed it…

Fees were tiny before it hit the block limit. If you look at the stats before the blocks started filling up, the average fee was around 5 cents USD. Massive fees only started once the blocks started filling up. And yup, the deflationary model certainly favors not using it as a currency.

Some people relying on 2017 price peak news headlines haven't gotten the memo that fees only spiked temporarily.

Fees are currently 5-10 cents to get in the next btc block and most lightning network transactions complete in 1-2 seconds and cost 1 cent or less in fees.

Re: EU to make Bitcoin traceable, ban anonymous crypto wallets

#232
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More accurately, after years of failing to be viable as a currency the salespeople started claiming the goal had never been replacing cash and instead was some sort of poorly defined “store of value” instead of what they’d spent the previous decade spinning stories about. Since a real reserve currency is stable and backed by consistent demand, it’s unclear why anyone expects a pure fiat currency backed only by a smal…

The speculators want to make money and they don't care how they get that money so they imagine something stupid like a major country adopting it as a reserve currency. Using El Salvador as an example would be funny because they use Bitcoin as a life raft for remittances, not because the currency is a good fit for day to day transactions.

All the problems bitcoin solves are worth solving. Do you have a solution to help people paying 20-50% fees for remittances?

Many here are comfortably banked and can't seem to put themselves in less privileged people's shoes.

Re: EU to make Bitcoin traceable, ban anonymous crypto wallets

#233

Everybody who ever thought that crypto currencies will not come under this scrutiny was highly delusional. All other governments will follow soon.

Yup. A technology which is mainly used for money laundering, dark-net markets, ransoms, and speculation will certainly attract the attention of government.

Savings/store of value is a bigger use case than anything you mentioned. Not sure why critics have to be so disingenuous if they have a strong enough bear case.

Re: EU to make Bitcoin traceable, ban anonymous crypto wallets

#234
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can just buy what they want with crypto instead of exchanging it for euro or dollar.

Maybe for virtual items but how would physical items work? The baker has the same issue as you and the flower costs Euros even though the baker might except crypto. I can figure some complex ways but somewhere, because there are not enough people using crypto, it will get exchanged and there you will be caught. In this scenario you are actually doing something illegal; spending money you did not declare to the gov fo…

Gift cards are anonymous bridges between the fiat and crypto world. Anyone can buy a $1000 Amazon gift card or 1000+ other gift cards instantly with no KYC.

Currently, buying gift cards using the lightning network is faster than buying gift cards directly from merchants and there is no way Amazon or any other merchant can win the speed race using the traditional financial network.

Re: EU to make Bitcoin traceable, ban anonymous crypto wallets

#235
post #30

The EU isn't doing anything to bitcoin. They have no ability to regulate bitcoin. They can make it traceable when it is held on kycd exchanges In their jurisdiction. That is a big difference

They have the same ability to regulate it as they do cash transactions. Which is to say, people will still find workarounds if they really want to take a shot at it, but forget about transacting with legit companies and institutions unless you want the spotlight shone on you.

Adding 1 additional p2p hop to transactions is trivially easy with Bitcoin and readily automatable. With 1 additional hop, you facilitate somebody's purchase of bitcoin and they pay for the services you need in fiat (usually at a discount). Good luck regulating that.

Re: EU to make Bitcoin traceable, ban anonymous crypto wallets

#236
post #73
post #7

I understand anti-EU sentiment, but who uses bitcoin for something different than transfering illegal funds and speculation? I understand Ethereum and other smart contract cryptocurcies, but time when people believed Bitcoin is going to become currency are long gone

When governments stop taking monetary policy seriously and inflation starts to meaningfully destroy savings, you can understand why alternatives gain some traction.

This is the correct answer. Bitcoin is the hardest money ever invented, at least while SHA256 stays secure. History has shown us that people move their savings from softer to harder stores of value as they become available, eventually making softer forms worthless as a currency (seashells, stones, silver, etc.). Currently we see gold as the hardest form of money but Bitcoin has zero supply elasticity which ensures an increasing stock to flow ratio over time, making it harder. Bitcoin is also in most, arguably all, respects better than gold as a store of value, and will, if it isn't replaced by something better or if a flaw isn't discovered that destroys its advantages over gold, make gold worthless as a store of value in the long run.

Re: EU to make Bitcoin traceable, ban anonymous crypto wallets

#237
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN tends to have a lot of people who are good at technical analysis and allergic to hyperbolic marketing. By now there's been a decade of Bitcoin proponents endlessly repeating claims which are either untrue or highly aspirational while it continues to very expensively not deliver results. This brings me to the second part: anyone who does care about privacy is _especially_ not going to recommend use of Bitcoin since…

I'm not sure how you can call it worse than the status quo. Last week my bank informed me that I passed my ATM limit for the year and it's going to give me a small daily allowance for the rest of the year. And then lied me on the phone that it's a requirement from the central bank. This is neither a joke nor a metaphor - this literally happened to me this month (ING in Romania -they're widely considered the best bank…

Worse from the perspective of privacy: right now, if you use cash your transactions are not traceable and if you use electronic systems they're subject to whatever rules the institutions you use have (e.g. your bank definitely knows who you interacted with for as long as they retain that data).

Bitcoin, on the other hand, makes every transaction public and permanent so anyone in the world can track you and they can retroactively link your activity at any point in the future. If you're trying to stay anonymous, every transaction you make is an opportunity to have your identity permanently revealed if you or the other party are compromised. If, say, you make a donation to a political campaign now and power changes hands a couple of years later, there's no way to retroactively scrub that record. People will say “oh, use a tumbler” — which is again putting a permanent “I'm trying to hide illegal activity” flag up in any of the situations where you really need it (not to mention the risk of being caught in someone else's activity and having to explain that you had no idea that you were using the same tumbler as a mafioso).

Note that I'm definitely not saying that the status quo is great, only that I think it's worse to make promises which the system cannot deliver. If people actually believe the Bitcoin salespeople and act as if it's privacy-preserving, they're at more risk than doing nothing at all.

Re: EU to make Bitcoin traceable, ban anonymous crypto wallets

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am absolutely of the opinion that we deserve more privacy when it comes to our transactions. We need and deserve a privacy-oriented payment system but we also need a financial system that is reliable, trustworthy, and most of all, fair. That’s not Bitcoin. I don’t know whether predatory investments and outright scams are simply inevitable with the anonymity cryptocurrency provides. I’d like to think there are some…

What makes you say it doesn’t work? And, you can’t have privacy and still prevent illicit transactions. Any way that leaks intent is by definition not private. Bitcoin, and other cryptocurrencies work fine, and achieve their goals.

> And, you can’t have privacy and still prevent illicit transactions. Any way that leaks intent is by definition not private.

Sure you can. Cash does. It’s why we don’t have large denominated bills.

Re: EU to make Bitcoin traceable, ban anonymous crypto wallets

#239
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how you can call it worse than the status quo. Last week my bank informed me that I passed my ATM limit for the year and it's going to give me a small daily allowance for the rest of the year. And then lied me on the phone that it's a requirement from the central bank. This is neither a joke nor a metaphor - this literally happened to me this month (ING in Romania -they're widely considered the best bank…

Worse from the perspective of privacy: right now, if you use cash your transactions are not traceable and if you use electronic systems they're subject to whatever rules the institutions you use have (e.g. your bank definitely knows who you interacted with for as long as they retain that data). Bitcoin, on the other hand, makes every transaction public and permanent so anyone in the world can track you and they can r…

> People will say “oh, use a tumbler” — which is again putting a permanent “I'm trying to hide illegal activity” flag up in any of the situations where you really need it

This is probably a correct analysis. It's very disheartening though.

Replace tumbler with encryption and you'll get the picture. My desire for privacy shouldn't be a reason to "Minority Report" me.

By the way, I know you didn't say otherwise - I'm just pointing out how bad the status quo can be.

Re: EU to make Bitcoin traceable, ban anonymous crypto wallets

#240
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN tends to have a lot of people who are good at technical analysis and allergic to hyperbolic marketing. By now there's been a decade of Bitcoin proponents endlessly repeating claims which are either untrue or highly aspirational while it continues to very expensively not deliver results. This brings me to the second part: anyone who does care about privacy is _especially_ not going to recommend use of Bitcoin since…

The privacy comes from the system being censorship resistant, so the platform itself can not require you to KYC yourself to the state in order to use it, or be shut down or blocked by the state. The irrepudiable public record of transactions is needed to make it censorship resistant, and does indeed come with severe privacy risks, though those can be mitigated with zk-proof cryptography (e.g. https://aztec.network/ )…

> The privacy comes from the system being censorship resistant, so the platform itself can not require you to KYC yourself to the state in order to use it, or be shut down or blocked by the state.

That's definitely a good example of the sales pitch, but think about how it works in the real world:

1. Nobody wants random numbers, so you have to link your Bitcoin addresses to real world identities on every transaction. Anyone you deal with can deanonymize you if required or compromised, which means that if you actually have cause for concern this is not a system you can trust.

2. Almost all transactions will require conversion to real currency at an exchange. This is, of course, a great place for a government to require KYC since the exchanges and businesses in your country are subject to local laws.

3. The network requires an easily-blocked protocol to send large amounts of data on a continuous basis. This makes it easy for a government to block unapproved exchanges — and, of course, since trying to circumvent the system is effectively waving an “illegal activity here!” flag that means that any transactions you try to make over something like a VPN have a high level of risk unless they're parties which you are certain are fully outside of your government's control. How much do you really trust that guy who says he works for the resistance with your full transaction history?

4. The next point on the sales pitch is usually “use a tumbler” or “use separate wallets for everything”. These are impractical on a regular basis, guaranteeing that people will be compromised by mistakes and again have their full public transaction history linked, and there's a huge trust problem: do you really believe everyone you interact with will keep your identity history? Will you ever make a mistake and use the wrong wallet? Will you always have so much money available that you never need to transfer funds? What happens when the police search your phone and find a banned Bitcoin client, which is to say a signed confession? Are you certain the tumbler you're using isn't compromised or run by the police? What happens when the police find someone else using the same tumbler to launder money and now you're being charged as an accomplice for the mob and are trying to prove that you were just breaking the law for some lesser crime and had no knowledge of what those guys were doing?

None of that is practical: real people are not going to want or reliably keep some kind of strict opsec regimen AND they're not capable of vetting that the software is actually implementing the promised privacy features. If you actually care about censorship, the first questions you'd want to think more deeply about are how people discover and use this system: can you be certain that the exchange someone told you was private isn't a sting operation? Is the person you're trying to send money to really who you think, and operating with perfect opsec?

At every point, the answer is “it's safer to use real cash” because then at least your risk exposure is limited to a single transaction at a specific point in time rather than a retroactive unveiling of your lifetime history.

Now, that's not great and it'll be cool if someone does come up with a truly robust anonymous system but that is not and never will be Bitcoin so it's recklessly irresponsible to run around telling people that Bitcoin is good for privacy and censorship avoidance when it can never meet those goals. It's also irresponsible to tell people that some new thing which was just developed is safe to use when it'll take decades both to prove that and develop safe community practices around the tool — many of the approaches people have hypothesized are not known to be safe in the context of an adversary with significant network visibility or statistical analysis capacity.

The other thing to remember, as we've seen with cryptography, is that you need to look at the whole system. One very nice trait about cash is that it's a robust system: I don't need to analyze a complex software stack and operating network to understand the threat model. It doesn't help anyone if, say, someone comes up with a great anonymous coin system but the local government is actively promoting exchanges and apps which are compromised — and even if you really are correct in believing that your opsec will be perfect for life, that's probably not true of everyone you deal with.

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