The Case for a Shorter Workweek • Hacker News Board

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#41

Post by over_bridge » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 3:37 AM UTC

martinmakesgame wrote: post #21

fleddr wrote: post #8

I've been working a 4-day work week for over a decade now. I took the pay cut myself. I pretty much agree with the article. Especially in knowledge-intense office jobs, people can't really be fully productive across the day or week. People have different energy cycles throughout the day, and we're biologically just not designed to focus this stretch of time. So a number of hours is "busy time", sitting out the hours.…

> We work longer, not shorter. We work as a couple, not as a single breadwinner. We have less job security than ever. The combined stress of a life long quest and grind for economic relevance is the greatest source of human suffering remaining. I feel like a part of the issue is a belief that competition is necessary for an economy to function. Some people say to themselves, "I need to work longer because I need to b…

I'm of the opinion that competition is unnecessary too. It seems more of a modern construct than a natural law - one aimed at disenfranchising workers and creating divisions between people who should be allies. If two lions constantly fight with other, do they get stronger, or do they become weak, injured and maimed? Much better to work together. I can't imagine that humans in hunter gatherer tribes competed with each other, nor in villages. What a waste of energy. Between two different ones, sure, but the default human interaction would have been a cooperative one with your peers looking out for you.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#42

Post by kaishiro » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 3:39 AM UTC

5F36B5F62640 wrote: post #23

I work as a programmer in a dying industry. Over the last several years we've cut hours instead of having layoffs. We are now down to a 3 day work week. Everyone left knows they should have left years ago but we are all curious to see how long the company can keep going. Everybody knows how 5 day work weeks are. You get back to work Monday and it may take a little while to pick up where you left off Friday but surely…

I appreciate your insight, and it really speaks to the varied experiences people can have in very similar situations.

When I first started contracting full-time, I took a presumably similar route to others who made the transition and brought on my old, full-time employer as a new, part-time client for three days a week. When my "Monday" rolled around (was contracted Tue-Thu) I was so amped to get into work that I had previously felt largely indifferent about. Since I was suddenly able to focus my own time on my own projects, it was easier to stay motivated and involved when it came back to "working". The next few months consisted of some of my post productive days with that company.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#43

Post by FalconSensei » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 3:50 AM UTC

actually_a_dog wrote: post #3

A couple of random and semi-related thoughts: I'm not really good for more than 6 hours of any sort of challenging mental work in a day, anyway. I also don't think that "hours" are a particularly good thing to track for software engineers -- we have ticket tracking and project management software that track effort already. The bit about being rewarded with a Friday off reminded me of how I'd try to get my homework do…

In that case, the alternative i that, if you finish something an hour before EOD, you go for a walk or watch some TV show. Then come back and push your code.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#44

Post by akiselev » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 5:53 AM UTC

over_bridge wrote: post #41

martinmakesgame wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We work longer, not shorter. We work as a couple, not as a single breadwinner. We have less job security than ever. The combined stress of a life long quest and grind for economic relevance is the greatest source of human suffering remaining. I feel like a part of the issue is a belief that competition is necessary for an economy to function. Some people say to themselves, "I need to work longer because I need to b…

I'm of the opinion that competition is unnecessary too. It seems more of a modern construct than a natural law - one aimed at disenfranchising workers and creating divisions between people who should be allies. If two lions constantly fight with other, do they get stronger, or do they become weak, injured and maimed? Much better to work together. I can't imagine that humans in hunter gatherer tribes competed with eac…

Economic competition isn't a battle between two animals or a war or something. It's a decentralized optimization or maximization strategy. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't, but it's not some violent struggle between competitors (usually).

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#45

Post by actually_a_dog » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 8:56 AM UTC

foxpurple wrote: post #37

actually_a_dog wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is in the real world it’s close to impossible to tell the difference between getting work done early and the task being easier than expected. Same the other way around. I don't see why that's a problem, provided there's not a lot of constant sandbagging when giving estimates.

If estimates control how long you work, managers will tightly tune them so no one gets extra time off and occasionally people will be asked to stay back late because they didn’t meet the estimate that may have just been unfair. Any discussion around estimates will turn toxic when it’s an argument of how many hours people work. Hours based work isn’t perfect but it means you can put in the average amount of effort and…

If that's the way it works, then estimates aren't "estimates." They're "commitments." I don't make solid commitments unless I'm 110% sure I can get what I said done by the time I said it would get done, and I imagine many others don't either. So, the rational response to "estimates cum commitments" is to only promise what one can deliver with high certainty.

This essentially leads to the same result as when estimates are actually estimates, except that I might feel free to overestimate my capabilities a little, but I'd never want to overcommit at all. In other words, if you just let me estimate instead of commit, you're likely to get more work out of me most of the time.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#46

Post by fleddr » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 10:02 AM UTC

martinmakesgame wrote: post #21

fleddr wrote: post #8

I've been working a 4-day work week for over a decade now. I took the pay cut myself. I pretty much agree with the article. Especially in knowledge-intense office jobs, people can't really be fully productive across the day or week. People have different energy cycles throughout the day, and we're biologically just not designed to focus this stretch of time. So a number of hours is "busy time", sitting out the hours.…

> We work longer, not shorter. We work as a couple, not as a single breadwinner. We have less job security than ever. The combined stress of a life long quest and grind for economic relevance is the greatest source of human suffering remaining. I feel like a part of the issue is a belief that competition is necessary for an economy to function. Some people say to themselves, "I need to work longer because I need to b…

With or without competition, my belief is that we have an economy that not only wrecks the planet, also the people living on it. It very poorly serves the average human being, or is even openly hostile to it.

Perhaps the most telling sign of it is the increasingly old age at which people have children, if at all.

So I can only agree. Life value, for lack of a better word, has been ignored too much. We race to acquire stuff and invent new stuff to acquire. Family, arts, personal health, nature...the very core of our humanity is side-lined as a "hobby" at best.

That's why I believe in a UBI-like solution. Consider it a technical belief, not a political one. I believe that we should have the technical capability and scalability by now to provide most people on this planet at the very least a humane existence.

Let's for the moment assume it to be a reality. A secure bottom. This eliminates the need for cut throat competition which people engage in as an economic survival instinct.

Instead, people are free to naturally align with their true interest, passion and skills. Now combine this with free education. Education is mostly just content, there's zero need for it to cost so much.

You'll probably consider it an utopia, but let's continue our day dreaming. In this world, people are not subject to the lottery of nations. Your place of birth deciding on your economic faith. Or the economic status of your family. At an elementary level, you're equal in access the opportunities.

The only variable part being genetics, the unique talents (and flaws) given from birth. The little boy from Nigeria might become a rocket engineer. The variability in given talents aligns beautifully with evolution theory.

Imagine the untapping of human potential currently lost. Imagine the natural motivation people would have if they could align with their passion without being distracted by basic survival. You wouldn't need a whip to force a contribution, it would come natural. You'd then discover that people are good and want to contribute to the world.

It sounds like a John Lennon song, and a cynic can think of a million reasons why it won't work. And that's exactly our problem, a cynical world view. Accepting that the world is dark and will only get darker.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#47

Post by fleddr » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 10:08 AM UTC

over_bridge wrote: post #41

martinmakesgame wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We work longer, not shorter. We work as a couple, not as a single breadwinner. We have less job security than ever. The combined stress of a life long quest and grind for economic relevance is the greatest source of human suffering remaining. I feel like a part of the issue is a belief that competition is necessary for an economy to function. Some people say to themselves, "I need to work longer because I need to b…

I'm of the opinion that competition is unnecessary too. It seems more of a modern construct than a natural law - one aimed at disenfranchising workers and creating divisions between people who should be allies. If two lions constantly fight with other, do they get stronger, or do they become weak, injured and maimed? Much better to work together. I can't imagine that humans in hunter gatherer tribes competed with eac…

Fully agree, hunter gatherers were cooperative, which means we are cooperative from birth.

The competition institutes we have today are very recent and made up.

A business or organization does not naturally occur, and hasn't for 99.99% of our existence. Same for countries.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#48

Post by fleddr » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 10:29 AM UTC

qqtt wrote: post #19

fleddr wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question, and that is hopefully a culture change coming, but I'm honestly not counting on it anytime soon. It seems such large sweeping changes require a culture shock. Covid did that for remote working. All the age-old remote work skeptics (read: conservative managers) now were forced to do it themselves. Even if they considered it to be terrible, they were forced to find a way to make it work. And it would wor…

> I have no idea how to do this for shorter work weeks at equal pay though. It's going to be a very tall order. Even with WFH and demonstrable positive effects on productivity metrics almost across the board - there are still companies clinging to the old way of doing things and employers demanding return to office. The most common response to a 4 day work week is going to be "no one else is doing so we can't afford…

Agreed. I think the feasibility largely depends on the industry or sector. In a sector where there is a worker shortage, say tech, there's more options for workers to negotiate terms. In a sector like retail, there may be no options at all.

There's also huge differences in work culture between the US, Europe, Asia.

For the individual worker, I do think there's room to stand your ground. People are too afraid. If you prove your value consistently and reliably, you may still not be irreplaceable, but it allows you to defend the line, if only you're not afraid to do so.

When my manager tells me to work harder, I tell him to fuck off. I'll have a box of ammo ready to show my large contributions. Not only will I tell them to fuck off, I'll them they're a shitty planner.

I flip the burden. They can now fire a good worker which will be very costly to replace, or respect my boundary.

They tend to respect the boundary. It's all bluff. And you even gain respect for not being a pushover.

Should it not be bluff, I'm unafraid. I live by the words of my father. They can take your job, but you still have your hands and brain.

But they won't fire you. When you stand like an oak instead of a twig in the wind, people will respect you.

Can you do this at McDonalds? No. But you can in a high-value complex job.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#49

Post by fleddr » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 11:26 AM UTC

Cullinet wrote: post #39

fleddr wrote: post #8

I've been working a 4-day work week for over a decade now. I took the pay cut myself. I pretty much agree with the article. Especially in knowledge-intense office jobs, people can't really be fully productive across the day or week. People have different energy cycles throughout the day, and we're biologically just not designed to focus this stretch of time. So a number of hours is "busy time", sitting out the hours.…

>" I now generously decline meetings, and if truly of low importance, don't even explain why. Your problem, not mine. Only my direct manager can lay a claim on my time, others must convince me of the purpose." I'm asking genuinely : is it become acceptable for peers to expect a ability to request and get meetings with peers with such a expectation - even without any justification, as I have understood the above - tha…

It's difficult to answer this.

I think people have a natural goodness in them, a will to help or contribute when somebody asks for it. And opposite to that, they feel bad when declining such requests.

That's why I decline based on the type of request. When somebody rudely plans over my lunch and calls the invite "meeting", I don't respond at all. Not even with a decline.

If the request is polite (we are blocked in our progress and really could use your help), I would go out of my way to somehow help them.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#50

Post by enominezerum » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

vipermark7 wrote: post #35

munk-a wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I worked in gaming the reward for getting your work done early was... attending the same mandatory overtime as everyone else because one department going home early would "hurt team morale". Granted - the same company seemed pretty oblivious to how much underbudgeting projects "hurt team morale" but that side of the equation was never changed. I thankfully changed industries but I still live with some of the con…

What are some of those consequences?

Not who you asked but I was working full-time and started full-time community college night classes. Monday from 6am to Friday 3pm I was 100% dedicated to work and study, I would get maybe 5 hours of sleep a night and crash when I got home Friday.

The friend group I hung with treated me like an outcast and out of about 6 only one is still friends with me some decade later. I also had to pick and choose family get togethers and some of the last years of my parents life.

I did it because I saw their health ailing and I wanted to be able to fully support myself and my brother by being more than a minimum wage retail worker, it just sucks that that coincided with them all ailing so rapidly and eventually passing by the time I was a senior in college.