I am an HFT Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#151

Post by metachris » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 9:29 PM UTC

AdamTReineke wrote: post #134

jrockway wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true. Finance attracts the most incompetent egomaniacs possible. I love getting lectures about how to design software from someone who has written: if x == 0: return "Monday"; elif x == 1: return "Tuesday"; ... This should be a criminal offense.

Honest question. What is wrong with something like that? I could see it justified by saving the overhead of a complex Date class.

It's just inelegant. A better approach would be an array where you return the content at the index.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#152

Post by wheels » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 9:30 PM UTC

Cushman wrote: post #149

wheels wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What they will never understand is how we get it so intuitively— not unless they put in the decades we did to get there. Huh? That's pretty much like any other skilled trade. I don't understand tractors like my grandfather does and he's made a lot more money selling them than most programmers will. I'm not more valuable as a human because I know code and he knows combines. (Now, one could argue that they were simply…

...is that not what I'm saying? Your grandfather took a situation where he had an advantage and leveraged it to make money. That's what programmers should be doing, too, if they want to make money.

It sounded like you were making a special case for being a software developer (since you tied it specifically to a CS curriculum). If your statement is simply, "Having useful skills that other people don't pays." then, well, uhh, duh.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#153

Post by ig1 » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 9:34 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #39

I worked for a time in finance and investment banking. Problem-wise it can be pretty interesting but it's important to distinguish between two classes of developers. 1. Traders; and 2. Non-traders. Engineers who are traders are typically called "quants" (quantitative traders) as they write software that employs trading strategies to make money, as one or more of spread trading (trading between the bid-ask spread), pr…

You're mistaken, quants tend to be mathematicians or traders who design algorithms or analyse trading or risk data, some of them may also be writing production trading code but definitely not all of them. The role you're describing is closer to "quant dev" where a developer works closely with quants to implement the algorithms, quant devs may also be involved in algorithm design but it's a distinct role.

It's also not just two roles, there are a huge variety of distinct roles paying different amount, although the closer you are to making money for the bank the more you're likely to get paid. While a developer working in front-office won't make as much as someone of similar seniority on the business side of the front-office, they can certainly make more than those working on the business side of the middle or back office.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#154

Post by locopati » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 9:38 PM UTC

ZephyrP wrote: post #121

wyclif wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're forgetting one crucial problem. Younger developers may or may not have more energy, but one thing they don't have is experience. Never, ever, underestimate experience.

Something of a false mutual-exclusion. Due to the massive influx of cheap computing hardware in the late 90s, There are 17-22 year old people who have been programming and studying math & CS for 10 years. 10 years is a lot of experience.

Experience programming does not necessarily translate to experience working with a team of developers within a business environment.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#155

Post by ig1 » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 9:39 PM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #138

cletus wrote: post #39

I worked for a time in finance and investment banking. Problem-wise it can be pretty interesting but it's important to distinguish between two classes of developers. 1. Traders; and 2. Non-traders. Engineers who are traders are typically called "quants" (quantitative traders) as they write software that employs trading strategies to make money, as one or more of spread trading (trading between the bid-ask spread), pr…

I've never bought the liquidity argument. Ordinary investors don't need to buy and sell at any time. They'd be happy buying and selling once a day (as with mutual funds). What if the market consisted of a deep daily or hourly auction with lots of buyers and sellers matched up to discover a fair price? How is the current system better than that?

Prices become erratic and jump around more, so it's much hard to predict at what price you'll be able to sell. News events related to a stock tend to have an bigger impact on the price as it's riskier to hold on to stock when negative news comes out (and vice versa).

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#156

Post by burgerbrain » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 9:41 PM UTC

Astrohacker wrote: post #40

burgerbrain wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he does what you do but makes 5 times as much as you, then you'd be a fool to not apply to such jobs.

Maybe, but there are a number of reasons why you might not want to: 1) The US financial system is unsustainable. Specialize in it and you will find yourself out of a job eventually. 2) It's unethical. If you understand that your excess salary is coming from wealth that is stolen from people through the mechanism of inflation, then you may want to opt out of the corrupt system for peace of mind. 3) If the people actua…

Oh don't be melodramatic. If the US financial system fails you'll be screwed no matter your industry if you're being paid in US currency. And angry mobs coming to lynch you? Give me a break, such a thing is unprecedented and the shear number of people in the field will provide protection even if that does happen (as will the amount of money you'd be making).

As for ethics: Perhaps the reason they are paid so much is because they, unlike you, are able to put aside petty issues like that.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#157

Post by ig1 » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 9:47 PM UTC

zedshaw wrote: post #34

This is a huge load of bullshit. 99% of the "banking programmers" are some of the worst coders in the world. A vast majority of them just babysit a Bloomberg terminal, barely understanding the supposed math they use all day. Others just babysit an Excel spreadsheet, or worse, develop whole applications in Excel then try to get a real programmer to "build it". The lower echelons are even worse and just make shitty C#…

It sounds like you had a bad experience at a single team in a single bank and are trying to extrapolate those experience to a sector that employs hundreds of thousands of developers.

Yes, there are plenty of shitty programmers at investment bank, there are also lots of top-tier ones.

And yes how much money your code makes is more important than how well factored it is. It doesn't matter if your code is the most beautiful code in the world if it doesn't work, shitty code that gets the job done is better. Regardless of whether you're working in finance or on a web app.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#158

Post by rubeng » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 9:50 PM UTC

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #57

cletus wrote: post #39

I worked for a time in finance and investment banking. Problem-wise it can be pretty interesting but it's important to distinguish between two classes of developers. 1. Traders; and 2. Non-traders. Engineers who are traders are typically called "quants" (quantitative traders) as they write software that employs trading strategies to make money, as one or more of spread trading (trading between the bid-ask spread), pr…

"The only way for an engineer to make real money is to be a quant, found a startup or join an early stage startup." This statement should be included in every CS curriculum.

It's all relative. Our family was considered poor when we lived in the US (as opposed to when we lived in Mexico). The first time I got a construction job that paid $8/hr I thought I had it made. This was low pay for construction workers but more money than almost anyone else I knew was making.

A couple of years later I dated a student nurse that told me her first job would pay her $16/hr. I was blown away and thought she was lying or exaggerating about the pay. People I knew just didn't make that kind of money.

Anyways, I eventually discovered programming and got a job with a relatively small developer's salary. It certainly was real money to me. It was life changing.

Of course, once in that environment it doesn't take long to take a good look at those around you and feel undervalued/underpaid. Funny how that works.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#159

Post by ig1 » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 9:56 PM UTC

jpz wrote: post #125

zedshaw wrote: post #34

This is a huge load of bullshit. 99% of the "banking programmers" are some of the worst coders in the world. A vast majority of them just babysit a Bloomberg terminal, barely understanding the supposed math they use all day. Others just babysit an Excel spreadsheet, or worse, develop whole applications in Excel then try to get a real programmer to "build it". The lower echelons are even worse and just make shitty C#…

There is a lot of crappy developers that's true. If you look at the serious pieces of infra inside the front offices for pricing and risk however, there are some smart people that have done some good software. Quite often however those projects are degraded as stewardship of these projects is inconsistent, and long tenure is not always there, so you don't get continuity in terms of engineering talent. Frequently this…

It depends on the bank, at some banks front-office developer bonuses are pay out of the desk bonus pool rather than a tech bonus pool.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#160

Post by burgerbrain » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 10:11 PM UTC

locopati wrote: post #154

ZephyrP wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something of a false mutual-exclusion. Due to the massive influx of cheap computing hardware in the late 90s, There are 17-22 year old people who have been programming and studying math & CS for 10 years. 10 years is a lot of experience.

Experience programming does not necessarily translate to experience working with a team of developers within a business environment.

By the time I graduated I had already worked on 3 development teams in fortune 500 companies. As much experience as people who graduated years before me? No. More experience than people my age who were in just about any other discipline than me? Definitely.

Young developer non-professional experience also commonly dwarfs what you'd expect in other industries. Try doing molecular biology at home.