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Another Airbnb Victim Tells His Story: “There Were Meth Pipes Everywhere”

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Re: Another Airbnb Victim Tells His Story: “There Were Meth Pipes Everywhere”

#61

Post by _delirium »

gojomo wrote: post #51
_delirium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Might have even been the same meth c[r]ooks. That's what I thought as well (both are SF Bay Area), though it's only a guess. The combination of meth-heads and identity theft seems weird to be repeated. I would even tentatively guess at the meth-heads trashing apts being a cover for someone else who got the idea of using AirBnB to acquire documents for an identity-theft ring, but who knows, it's possible there are a…

Meth addicts seem to like identity-theft, so that correlation is not especially unique. See for example: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/11/us/11meth.html (Identity theft is also the perfect precursor to evading what payment- and identity- checks do exist in an AirBnb-like system.)

Interesting; thanks for the link. That's kind of a fascinating connection between drug chemistry, socioeconomic settings, and crime. Given that background, two meth-use-with-ID-theft incidents don't seem as weird to find in an AirBnB-like setting, which seems almost perfect for the kinds of people described in that article.

Re: Another Airbnb Victim Tells His Story: “There Were Meth Pipes Everywhere”

#62

Post by tptacek »

angryasian wrote: post #50
cletus wrote: post #18

As much as some people might view this as "sometimes things go wrong", which is basically true, that's not the whole story. The story here is that people are doing things that in most jurisdictions are illegal. AirBnB is profiting off this. Do something illegal and you can't insure against any negative consequences. The whole EJ situation is a potential inflection point. Without knowing the full facts (which no one s…

I made this point again.. as carr did in a recent article. All of you need to stop vilifying these people coming forward. She did nothing wrong except to believe all the hype of how great it is to rent out your living space to a complete strangers. Her only mistake was believing all this hype of disruption without understanding that there are reasons why hotels, and investment properties have certain laws and insuran…

You're the one drawing the lines here, not 'cletus. The comment you're responding to goes out of its way to attribute possible fault to Airbnb and is comparatively ginger about what "EJ" (or, far more likely, the legal representation "EJ" has almost certainly acquired by now) may be doing tactically.

I don't have a strong opinion about this story, except that the "red team / blue team" mentality commenters have about this issue is driving me fucking nuts. You don't have to think anything negative about "EJ" to think that we're not getting the whole story from her. All you have to think is, she (very sanely) got a tenacious lawyer.

Re: Another Airbnb Victim Tells His Story: “There Were Meth Pipes Everywhere”

#63

Post by mgkimsal »

dspillett wrote: post #55
rokhayakebe wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's going to be a game changer is when stories start breaking about owners who rent out their space as a way to lure in people for killing or torturing them. I agree 100%. However I ask say how in the world did you think about this?

I thought it too when I heard about the service and how little vetting is done (i.e. not, it is all left to the users). A fair number of rape/murder/other cases involve an unwitting victim being lured into situations that they naively (or just incorrectly) think should be safe. It is far from a daily occurrence in any given area but such cases are in the national news often enough (and fictional realms also) to figur…

Not just 'no vetting' is done, but they actively discourage you from making your own outside contact with the other party until you've already paid. Craigslist doesn't go that far - they do hide your email, but they don't stop you from trying to do your own vetting.

Re: Another Airbnb Victim Tells His Story: “There Were Meth Pipes Everywhere”

#64

Post by acgourley »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #5

I'm realizing I'm confused about what value airbnb is offering. If they don't vet people on either end, are they really just a craigslist with payment processing?

By building a market for buyers and sellers of otherwise unused low marginal cost assets they are clearly creating value. You can argue that by not vetting they invite random disaster which may be more expensive than the cost of the vetting itself. But you can't say they are not creating value overall.

Re: Another Airbnb Victim Tells His Story: “There Were Meth Pipes Everywhere”

#65

Post by mgkimsal »

ig1 wrote: post #52
mgkimsal wrote: post #22

What's going to be a game changer is when stories start breaking about owners who rent out their space as a way to lure in people for killing or torturing them. Right now it's about "you were stupid, why did you rent your space out to strangers?". Later on it'll be "why did you try to save $20 and go sleep some place where you're 110% vulnerable?". You don't control the locks, you don't know the neighborhood or even…

This already happens on classified ad sites, people regularly go into strangers homes to purchase a wide range of goods with close to zero pre-checks. And yes people do get killed when they turn up at someone's house with 5k in cash to buy a car. Doesn't seem to have stopped the classified business from working...

While you're right, it hasn't stopped them, "classifieds" have largely been eroded by things like Craigslist, which do allow you to do a bit of research and contact on your own. They don't prevent it. And I typically am not paying for the privilege of meeting my ransacker/assailant.

What's more, CL (and others) actively try to scare you with warnings about how not to get scammed and such. ABNB doesn't seem to take that approach, trying to wrap the whole thing up as a comfy/pleasing experience.

Re: Another Airbnb Victim Tells His Story: “There Were Meth Pipes Everywhere”

#66

Post by kamagmar »

_delirium wrote: post #35
gojomo wrote: post #23

Might have even been the same meth c[r]ooks. Kudos to Dayton for keeping a balanced perspective on the situation, and not equating customer service clumsiness with indifference. I like AirBnb. I will continue to use AirBnb as a guest. (Hypothetically if I were to be a host, I would only rent a hardened/rental-only property with careful assessment of the potential guests.) I am also still bullish on the general theme…

> Might have even been the same meth c[r]ooks. That's what I thought as well (both are SF Bay Area), though it's only a guess. The combination of meth-heads and identity theft seems weird to be repeated. I would even tentatively guess at the meth-heads trashing apts being a cover for someone else who got the idea of using AirBnB to acquire documents for an identity-theft ring, but who knows, it's possible there are a…

> it's possible there are actually meth-heads who are also into identity theft

Not just possible, it's actually quite common, and has been for awhile. For example, see this article from 2004:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4460349/

Re: Another Airbnb Victim Tells His Story: “There Were Meth Pipes Everywhere”

#67

Post by scott_s »

hnal943 wrote: post #46
JVerstry wrote: post #4

Renting to strangers is like having sex without protection. Period.

There's lots of ways to protect yourself when renting to strangers. The fact that EJ and others do not avail themselves of the necessary insurance, etc. is what's reckless.

As has been pointed out multiple times, there is probably no insurance policy that would cover your apartment if you rent it out with AirBNB. Renter's insurance won't cover it, and individuals can't get the kind of insurance hotels get because they don't own the property. And if you meet the classification of a hotel, then there's a good chance you're breaking the law in some places. You can't get insurance while breaking the law.

Re: Another Airbnb Victim Tells His Story: “There Were Meth Pipes Everywhere”

#68

Post by tptacek »

timr wrote: post #56
cletus wrote: post #18

As much as some people might view this as "sometimes things go wrong", which is basically true, that's not the whole story. The story here is that people are doing things that in most jurisdictions are illegal. AirBnB is profiting off this. Do something illegal and you can't insure against any negative consequences. The whole EJ situation is a potential inflection point. Without knowing the full facts (which no one s…

"But there's something "off" about EJ's position here. Why is a vandalized apartment leaving her homeless?" Put yourself in the position of a person who has just had their apartment burglarized (remember: they stole her personal documents and valuables) and their keys stolen by probable drug addicts. Also, remember that the police have arrested one of the vandals, but probably not all of them. Ignoring, for the momen…

Most everyone on HN is going to agree with what you are saying: that there is a reasonable narrative in which "EJ" is unable to return to her home due to fear. As a recent victim of a comparatively pathetic "violent" crime: that is absolutely something you are concerned about. And that's before we even get to the topic of "can EJ repair the damage done to her home without diminishing the expected return from a settlement with Airbnb", which might also keep her out of her house.

So yes. Let's all agree: it's not crazy to acknowledge that "EJ" is trapped in a set of circumstances keeping her out of her house.

However. That does not mean the only interpretation of events here is that "EJ" is fundamentally unable to return to her home. Another possible interpretation is, she lawyered up (good for her), and has been advised that the longer this remains an issue for her, the better her negotiating position is.

Re: Another Airbnb Victim Tells His Story: “There Were Meth Pipes Everywhere”

#70

Post by jsavimbi »

masklinn wrote: post #26
cletus wrote: post #18

As much as some people might view this as "sometimes things go wrong", which is basically true, that's not the whole story. The story here is that people are doing things that in most jurisdictions are illegal. AirBnB is profiting off this. Do something illegal and you can't insure against any negative consequences. The whole EJ situation is a potential inflection point. Without knowing the full facts (which no one s…

> Why is a vandalized apartment leaving her homeless? I would guess the vandalization of her flat leads her to not feeling "safe" there anymore, and thus not being able to live there.

In both cases the tweakers were local, which is scary all in itself. I think it's safe to say that having those people in your community and them knowing who you are and where you live and possibly having a key to your home has to be very intimidating.

Which brings up one of my favorite subjects: tweaker behavior. Now that we have a second story we can start to abstract patterns out of what is going on, which to me appears to be either random tweakers needing a place to party discover that Airbnb is easier, cheaper and more anonymous than a hotel room or that a tweaker gang that enjoys identity theft is going about their business in the Bay Area piggybacking off of Airbnb's business model.

If they're just kids looking for the thrilling byproduct of smoking cleaning supplies, Chesky will eventually get off his ass and implement features and controls that curb this activity and squeeze some bucks out of the business model, unfortunately, but Airbnb will continue as a going concern. The second scenario is really a stretch but I'm always surprised with what meth addicts come up with and quite frankly, I'm looking forward to the rest of the story. We are now four days into this shitstorm and nobody over at the Airbnb webmaster office has even attempted to adress any of these concerns by posting, oh you know, like a psa on the homepage.

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