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How The Hell Is This My Fault?

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Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#291

Post by efsavage »

true_religion wrote: post #165
jellicle wrote: post #154

Sounds to me like Paul Graham has made a fairly fundamental and common mistake, which is to say believing the AirBnb people when they reassure him that everything is under control and there's no fire here. Paul, if you actually read the statements made by the CEO on news.ycombinator.com, it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. I don't want to call Paul a liar, since it seems like…

Air BNB is specifically not an insurrance company. They technically have no obligation to pay in the case of any damage. For them, the best possible course of action was to bury this case. However, now that it's come into the public light they're torn between (a) trying to re-iterate to everyone that they do not have liability and (b) trying to look good by doing the "Right Thing". As a business owner, I feel for the…

> As a business owner, I feel for them. As a human being, I feel for her

Separating the two is what causes situations like this.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#292

Post by freshfunk »

breck wrote: post #197
jellicle wrote: post #154

Sounds to me like Paul Graham has made a fairly fundamental and common mistake, which is to say believing the AirBnb people when they reassure him that everything is under control and there's no fire here. Paul, if you actually read the statements made by the CEO on news.ycombinator.com, it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. I don't want to call Paul a liar, since it seems like…

> it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. No. Some terrible human being who should be in jail is at fault here. Airbnb and YC are all run by great people. Responding to a crisis like this is never easy. Responding to your first crisis like this is hardest of all. I wouldn't blame Michael Arrington at all, either. I think he's done a great job at reporting this. But it's not his f…

>Also, in regard to the so called "coverup", it's totally natural when someone says bad things about you on the internet to ask them to take them down. That's not a "cover up". That's "being human".

I believe PG used the word "bullshit" in his slander against Arrington's reporting. This isn't PG's "first rodeo" either and so such strong words can't easily be chalked up to just "being human" IMHO.

Arrington's a report and PG's an investor. They both have their motives for acting/reacting in certain ways.

I think the mistake being made here is to assume that any party is necessarily "great people" without actually knowing them personally (YC, AirBnb, Arrington, PG, etc.). Even EJ has motivations in making as much noise as possible (ie. her compensation for damages will likely be much better now).

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#293

Post by billswift »

scottkduncan wrote: post #220
breck wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. No. Some terrible human being who should be in jail is at fault here. Airbnb and YC are all run by great people. Responding to a crisis like this is never easy. Responding to your first crisis like this is hardest of all. I wouldn't blame Michael Arrington at all, either. I think he's done a great job at reporting this. But it's not his f…

This is the first big PR blow-up for Airbnb, but they are not a brand new company any more and they had to expect that they would have an event like this (or even worse, a rape or murder) that would raise questions about their business model and force them to respond publicly. The weak response to date shows that either A) they weren't anticipating this likely bump in the road or, B) they were anticipating it and the…

Or C, they had a plan for it, but when it actually happened they panicked, forgot the plan, and stuck their foot in it up to their armpit. Many people who have not had to deal with sudden difficulties don't seem to realize just how strong the tendency is to forget plans, intentions, and just do whatever you first think of. That is why serious martial artists, the military, and EMTs train, and train, and train some more. They have to respond correctly even when they aren't expecting problems to crop up.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#294

Post by freshfunk »

kyro wrote: post #95

HN has been pretty disgusting the last few days: the level of schadenfreude here has hit ridiculous new highs. It seems that every time a story breaks about a successful company, a bunch of envious and disgruntled people come out of the woodwork and jump onto the bandwagon headed straight for the founders' heads. A community of seemingly intelligent and rational individuals turns into the most rabid, emotionally-char…

This story comes soon after the issue with AirBnb being outted where they were emailing/spamming listers on Craigslist and posing as fake people. Not only is this illegal (CAN-SPAM act) but also unethical and dishonest.

One thing I didn't see from this was a response by PG. Only silence.

But I didn't assume his stance. After all, there's a lot that happens behind the scenes. (And I can't track all responses to stories on HN.)

But now we have this story. I'm still open to seeing how things play out and finding out what's really happened. But, so far, it's not looking good for AirBnb or PG. All the sympathy is going to EJ IMO.

And I did see a response by PG which essentially called Arrington's reporting "bullshit." His comments also seemed to directly contradict what EJ said. So someone's not being completely honest.

Given that EJ's the victim and PG's an investor, most readers are likely to be biased in favor of EJ (unless they are an HN/YC/PG fanboy).

So I wouldn't call it shadenfreude. I see it as AirBnb/PG having at track record based on other, recent, controversial events. I think to blame HN or its "collective IQ" is somewhat ignorant and self-serving.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#295

Post by jacquesm »

samtp wrote: post #290
jacquesm wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's okay to connect her to Paul because... Both EJ and Paul stand to gain from resolving this situation quickly and orderly. And both could lose considerably if this is allowed to drag on much longer and/or hits the mainstream press.

How exactly could she lose as much as PG? It seems that PG is in a situation to lose a lot more. Instead, EJ would likely get public sympathy and help. This honestly sounds borderline threatening. But judging from your recent actions, I don't expect you to take care with how things are said.

When people from both camps vilify you equally you can be fairly sure that you're even handed.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#296

Post by breck »

quanticle wrote: post #287
breck wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. No. Some terrible human being who should be in jail is at fault here. Airbnb and YC are all run by great people. Responding to a crisis like this is never easy. Responding to your first crisis like this is hardest of all. I wouldn't blame Michael Arrington at all, either. I think he's done a great job at reporting this. But it's not his f…

>I used to have a knee jerk reaction and email people asking them to take things down. And how well did that work out for you (and your dad)? The knee-jerk reaction is as primitive and counterproductive as it is understandable. The AirBnB founders aren't naifs to the Internet. They understand the Streisand Effect. It might be understandable for them to want EJ to take down her blog post. But to actually go out and as…

It never worked. :)

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#297

Post by prodigal_erik »

freshfunk wrote: post #294
kyro wrote: post #95

HN has been pretty disgusting the last few days: the level of schadenfreude here has hit ridiculous new highs. It seems that every time a story breaks about a successful company, a bunch of envious and disgruntled people come out of the woodwork and jump onto the bandwagon headed straight for the founders' heads. A community of seemingly intelligent and rational individuals turns into the most rabid, emotionally-char…

This story comes soon after the issue with AirBnb being outted where they were emailing/spamming listers on Craigslist and posing as fake people. Not only is this illegal (CAN-SPAM act) but also unethical and dishonest. One thing I didn't see from this was a response by PG. Only silence. But I didn't assume his stance. After all, there's a lot that happens behind the scenes. (And I can't track all responses to storie…

Eventually pg did repeat AirBnB's line blaming a rogue sales team, which I found utterly credulous (what else did anyone think they were doing? why haven't they been outed and nailed to the wall?)

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#298

Post by badclient »

pg wrote: post #274
dhbanes wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, this certainly clears it up. To those of you who have been concerned with Airbnb and PG's actions over the past few days... it's just because you're jealous and stupid. Classy, Paul.

It's a kind of stupidity I myself have fallen prey to in the past. One of the things I learned from being one of the earliest users of reddit is how easy it is to let indignation cloud one's judgment. Time after time I'd be led into angrily upvoting some story, only to learn later that things were not at all as they seemed initially. After many years of being faked out, I gradually learned to reserve judgment when my…

Time after time I'd be led into angrily upvoting some story, only to learn later that things were not at all as they seemed initially

Exactly. To me it seems very suspicious that the airbnb accuser won't release original communication between her and airbnb. She can do that voluntarily. However, airbnb being a corporation cannot do the same unless as a court proceeding. On the same note, airbnb also cannot publicly indulge in setting the record straight and calling out a former customer no matter how much she may be at fault. Folks at HN simply appear oblivious to these finer points.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#299

Post by badclient »

ximeng wrote: post #277
pg wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a kind of stupidity I myself have fallen prey to in the past. One of the things I learned from being one of the earliest users of reddit is how easy it is to let indignation cloud one's judgment. Time after time I'd be led into angrily upvoting some story, only to learn later that things were not at all as they seemed initially. After many years of being faked out, I gradually learned to reserve judgment when my…

I'm more curious than angry, I want to know AirBnb's side of the story. Unfortunately brianchesky's comments here are brief and he ignores the replies: http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=brianchesky AirBnb are giving low-key responses given the coverage it's received. Perhaps this is for privacy or legal reasons, or for PR / reputation reasons, or they don't think their response will be perceived as adequate by t…

My guess is that it is for privacy and legal reasons. They cannot make public details about their conversation with a customer they have a contract with without potentially violating privacy agreements. The best they can do is release fluff pieces or remain completely silent. They went with the former though between those two choices, I don't think it makes much of a difference.

Now the accuser can easily clear all this up by publishing her original communication with airbnb and their exact responses. Instead she continues to post summations which the public here seems to take as a definitive word(wrongly, in my view).

I've a hunch that when the dust settles, we'll be reading a lot of mea culpas from HN users who rushed to judgement against airbnb.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#300

Post by jodrellblank »

bugsy wrote: post #250
jacquesm wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, she chose to make this public, and she chose to do so apparently because AirBNB refused to move on terms that are acceptable to her. Nobody here is claiming that she is 'on trial', but when you go public with a story there will always be questions. That is because people will align with your story and your interests if they consider you to be the party that is speaking the truth. This is a fairly normal thi…

> she chose to do so apparently because AirBNB refused to move on terms that are acceptable to her There you go again Jacques with your wording that is designed to raise suspicion on the crime victim and her motivations. You pass her personal identity to an investor with a billion dollar reason to silence her, you say she should show proof she was really robbed in the form of photographs on the internet of her person…

She IS unsafe because the people who robbed her apartment stalked her by email, manipulated her, and were still out there at large a month after the crime was discovered.

On the other hand, she had the good luck to be criminalised by people who went to all the effort of using a service to make sure the home they robbed was empty instead of chancing it on one that looked empty, to lie to her during the crime to keep from being discovered, to be gone before she returned, and to have not returned for a month afterwards.

I wonder if there are any studies indicating if she would be at statistically significantly higher risk of crime than most people now?

THE PEOPLE [AirBnB] ALLOWED TO ROB HER HOUSE.

And you accuse jacquesm of manipulative wording.

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