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Benefits of Not Using an IDE

alexander-hansen.dev

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Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#381

Post by jeffterns8 »

deltasixeight wrote: post #371
orwin wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really just asking, do you think VSCode is a text editor? I used to put it in the same categories as IDE (and thought that it was really better than Netbeans and Eclipse)

The lines have blurred. I would put it more in the editor category. You really need to download plugins for it to come close to an IDE and it's not as feature complete as say pycharm or Clion. I would say VSCode is more in the code editor category, but as I said before the lines are blurring. With enough plugins and configuration even vim and emacs can straddle that line. In general IDE's tend to have more features l…

That's just confusing big-brand mature IDE suites as the definition for IDE though. Any dev working on an actual project is going to be using those tools with plugins/extensions, configured as an IDE.

A dev would require completely separate tools that provide that functionality to say otherwise.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#382

Post by jeffterns8 »

dolni wrote: post #126
Frost1x wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the longest time I was a proponent of limited tooling. In many cases its good to know what you're automating or simplifying because I often found myself in situations where I may have environments I need to do things where I didn't have my tooling to lean on. In the past, this was possible without too much pressure on cognitive load. In modern code bases with all sorts of libraries and layers of abstraction ontop…

I think one could make the case that IDEs enable the type of complexity you're referring to. I don't know that I view that as a positive. A lot of software development is about managing complexity. IDEs allow developers to be sloppier. In the same way that faster CPUs have resulted in less optimized software over the years, IDEs have resulted in more complex software.

That can be said about languages, libraries, plugins, any tools you choose to make use of. It's just about sticking to good practices and understanding what you're using instead of choosing to be a bad dev. That shouldn't require excluding everything that has the potential to be used improperly.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#383

Post by falcolas »

jeffterns8 wrote: post #379
falcolas wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, it would make you a better swimmer - it will help you build up strength, stamina, and technique. An excellent choice in analogies.

Well the analogy doesn't actually allow for a starter/bad swimmer as they drown first. Also, swimmers don't swim with weights to improve technique or strength. I'd expect it would result in unorthodox or worsened technique due to trying to swim around the artificial imbalance of the weights.

> Also, swimmers don't swim with weights to improve technique or strength.

They use the aquatic analog to weights - disabling their arms or legs, drastically increasing drag (via multiple swimsuits, or suits with chute-like pockets), swimming against bungee cords.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#384

Post by deltasixeight »

jeffterns8 wrote: post #381
deltasixeight wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lines have blurred. I would put it more in the editor category. You really need to download plugins for it to come close to an IDE and it's not as feature complete as say pycharm or Clion. I would say VSCode is more in the code editor category, but as I said before the lines are blurring. With enough plugins and configuration even vim and emacs can straddle that line. In general IDE's tend to have more features l…

That's just confusing big-brand mature IDE suites as the definition for IDE though. Any dev working on an actual project is going to be using those tools with plugins/extensions, configured as an IDE. A dev would require completely separate tools that provide that functionality to say otherwise.

No it's not. "Big branded" IDE's are actually more feature complete in terms of intellisense and auto complete and auto formatting when compared to "code editors" that are fully loaded with plugins.

They usually achieve much better integration with the projects and this is not including the side features like remote development or database browsers. VSCode comes close to an IDE much closer than vim or emacs when fully loaded on plugins but even in this case jetbrains edges them out.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#385

Post by deltasixeight »

jeffterns8 wrote: post #380
deltasixeight wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those editors aren't really part of the conversation anymore. I would say they were maybe over 12 years ago. Not so nowadays. People are referring to SublimeText, Vim, Emacs, VSCode as Programming Text editors. VSCode is currently the most popular with vim as purist second and Emacs for "elite" hackers.

The "programming text editors"/"code editors" of now that are used in place of traditional IDEs are practically always extended to, by definition, being an IDE, albeit a leaner, more custom-fit one.

naw, despite this there is a noticeable lack of features from the "code editors" side. So much so that the definitions have evolved but the distinction remains.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#386

Post by jeffterns8 »

falcolas wrote: post #383
jeffterns8 wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the analogy doesn't actually allow for a starter/bad swimmer as they drown first. Also, swimmers don't swim with weights to improve technique or strength. I'd expect it would result in unorthodox or worsened technique due to trying to swim around the artificial imbalance of the weights.

> Also, swimmers don't swim with weights to improve technique or strength. They use the aquatic analog to weights - disabling their arms or legs, drastically increasing drag (via multiple swimsuits, or suits with chute-like pockets), swimming against bungee cords.

Other than bungee cords for small pools/space usage, can't say I've heard of such drag methods, only of resistance training outside of the pool. Though, I didn't mean to take the analogy off-topic, maybe I got too literal.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#387

Post by bccdee »

jeffterns8 wrote: post #378
bccdee wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Do I have to spin up a whole session of the IDE just to run my test suite? > what are you on about? This complaint is based on a .NET project I used to work on. I'm sure this isn't universally the case for everything .NET, but I had to work with one instance of visual studio open in the code repository and a second instance of visual studio open in the test repository. Everything we did was configured in and execu…

Poor project management != fault of IDE, it's the one responsible for choosing to configure the project in said way. That's not dismissing the fact that VS and other IDEs allow, and even recommend, nasty setups but, unless they force them, I don't see blaming optional features or poor usage of a tool as a rational reason to write off an entire toolset that can be powerful and productive.

It was an older project — from what I've heard, better VS project structuring has only been possible in newer VS editions.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#388

Post by jeffterns8 »

bccdee wrote: post #387
jeffterns8 wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor project management != fault of IDE, it's the one responsible for choosing to configure the project in said way. That's not dismissing the fact that VS and other IDEs allow, and even recommend, nasty setups but, unless they force them, I don't see blaming optional features or poor usage of a tool as a rational reason to write off an entire toolset that can be powerful and productive.

It was an older project — from what I've heard, better VS project structuring has only been possible in newer VS editions.

How old are we talking? I've worked with versions of VS since VS 2005 and don't recall ever having issues with project structuring.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#389

Post by wizzwizz4 »

hota_mazi wrote: post #317
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like PyCharm, but it can certainly refactor Python programs. What are you talking about?

Not automatically. The absence of type annotations means a human needs to double check the refactoring. https://www.beust.com/weblog/2021/06/20/refactoring-a-dynami...

> You might think it’s obvious that you need to rename both A.f and B.f, but that’s just because this snippet is trivial.

In the general case, yes – but that's like saying “no termination analysis is possible because of the halting problem”. The IDE can safely refactor, unsafely attempt a refactor, and warn when it does the latter rather than the former.

Though I didn't know PyCharm didn't do that! That's dangerous; thanks for the warning.

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