Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple already scans iCloud Mail for CSAM, but not iCloud Photos

9to5mac.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 142 posts

Re: Apple already scans iCloud Mail for CSAM, but not iCloud Photos

#51

Post by kemayo »

joshstrange wrote: post #22
YPPH wrote: post #9

The clear distinction being that iCloud Mail scanning doesn't happen on device. For my part, all Apple needs to do is move CSAM scanning to the cloud. No service provider can be expected to keep images of child abuse on their servers. Apple would join myriad cloud service providers in scanning for and reporting such material. My problem is the use of my own device to run the scan. It's a waste of system resources. Pr…

Genuine question. I know this is not the situation we find ourselves in but, if your options were on-device scanning for CSAM+encrypted iCloud Photos (that Apple could not decode) OR cloud-based scanning of iCloud Photos which would you pick? Are you still opposed to all on-device scanning? Edit: Thank you all for your replies. I don't share the exact same concerns as some of you but I appreciate you sharing your tho…

So long as I'm confident that disabling the iCloud Photos service also disables the scanning, I prefer the local scanning + e2e encryption.

(My take is that if I can't trust Apple when they say this is the case, I also can't trust that they're not already being made to scan all my photos locally, so...)

Re: Apple already scans iCloud Mail for CSAM, but not iCloud Photos

#52

Post by Infernal »

YPPH wrote: post #9

The clear distinction being that iCloud Mail scanning doesn't happen on device. For my part, all Apple needs to do is move CSAM scanning to the cloud. No service provider can be expected to keep images of child abuse on their servers. Apple would join myriad cloud service providers in scanning for and reporting such material. My problem is the use of my own device to run the scan. It's a waste of system resources. Pr…

> Presumably, a trivial software update down the line could expand its ambit to locally stored files.

And backing up one level, this is why I’m finally working hard to take control of my devices and data from companies like Apple. This most recent episode shows that “a trivial software update” such as the one in iOS 14.3 can introduce this on-device scanning where non existed before. We knew it was possible of course, but now we have a clear cut example of it. They’ve lost my trust and that’s that.

Re: Apple already scans iCloud Mail for CSAM, but not iCloud Photos

#53

Post by Infernal »

sirbutters wrote: post #50
anonuser123456 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an alternative, more reasonable way to look at the Apple proposal. The scanning occurs in order to upload files to iCloud photos. Your device is attesting that data you upload to iCloud photos is not pre-established CSAM. If you do not like the privacy implications of having your content inspected locally, on your device, simply choose another cloud photo provider and turn off iCloud photos. You are told abo…

This comment should be way up. People afraid of "what else" Apple can start scanning on our devices has always been a reality, way before CSAM. If they ever decided to remove the feature, it's not like it will magically make it impossible for Apple to ever scan our devices again in the future. They can run whatever code they want on their device. We've always put our trust on Apple to not do any shady things on our p…

> We've always put our trust on Apple to not do any shady things on our phone

…and now we have a case in point of them doing shady things on our phones. This breaks the trust.

Re: Apple already scans iCloud Mail for CSAM, but not iCloud Photos

#54

Post by anonuser123456 »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #49
anonuser123456 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an alternative, more reasonable way to look at the Apple proposal. The scanning occurs in order to upload files to iCloud photos. Your device is attesting that data you upload to iCloud photos is not pre-established CSAM. If you do not like the privacy implications of having your content inspected locally, on your device, simply choose another cloud photo provider and turn off iCloud photos. You are told abo…

iOS doesn't allow other cloud photo services to upload in the background except via flaky hacks, so the choice for iPhone users is really between iCloud Photos and crippled alternatives.

This is the tradeoff of the Apple ecosystem. For most users the trade off is a no-brainer because they don't care about the theoretical concerns that, in expectation, do not apply to them. I mean, what is the probability of this technology causing an innocent user harm? 1/1,000,000 ? 1/10,000,000? 1/100,000,000?

Re: Apple already scans iCloud Mail for CSAM, but not iCloud Photos

#55

Post by Infernal »

hanklazard wrote: post #33
rdudek wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is correct. I have no problems of them scanning my icloud mail or photos. I just don't like the idea of there being a system level scanner for a hash database on my device assuming that I'm guilty until proven innocent. I was going to upgrade my iPhone this fall to latest model, now I'm very hesitant to do so and looking at alternatives.

My pre-owned Pixel arrives tomorrow and I'm looking forward to playing around with open-source alternatives. I think I'm going to start with this: https://lineage.microg.org/

I’m aiming for a used Pixel 5 and GrapheneOS. GrapheneOS seems to have the most focus on breaking entirely away from Google services.

Re: Apple already scans iCloud Mail for CSAM, but not iCloud Photos

#56

Post by xunn0026 »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #40
gonn wrote: post #16

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I find the idea of people sending this kind of materials via email to be asking for trouble, to put it mildly.

While I agree, law enforcement in the U.S. is supposedly bound by the "expectation of privacy" where, I think we can all agree, we ought to have an expectation of privacy when we send an email directly to one of our contacts. Of course Google and Gmail (as an obvious example) are not law enforcement so they can specify the terms of privacy when you sign up, scan your email if they wish, etc.

> I think we can all agree, we ought to have an expectation of privacy when we send an email directly to one of our contacts.

We ought.

But in my country I once received a piece of physical mail from a more important institution in a more special (but not shady) country and the mail literally arrived open. I realised this is how people under communist regimes must have felt.

Re: Apple already scans iCloud Mail for CSAM, but not iCloud Photos

#57

Post by amznthrwaway »

anonuser123456 wrote: post #54
lern_too_spel wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iOS doesn't allow other cloud photo services to upload in the background except via flaky hacks, so the choice for iPhone users is really between iCloud Photos and crippled alternatives.

This is the tradeoff of the Apple ecosystem. For most users the trade off is a no-brainer because they don't care about the theoretical concerns that, in expectation, do not apply to them. I mean, what is the probability of this technology causing an innocent user harm? 1/1,000,000 ? 1/10,000,000? 1/100,000,000?

All evidence is that the chance of harm is literally zero.

This stuff is used to scan pics on every photo hosting service already, and there’s no known instances of a life ruined over a hash collision.

Every one of the harm narratives comes from a slippery slope fallacy.

Re: Apple already scans iCloud Mail for CSAM, but not iCloud Photos

#58

Post by n8cpdx »

Infernal wrote: post #55
hanklazard wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My pre-owned Pixel arrives tomorrow and I'm looking forward to playing around with open-source alternatives. I think I'm going to start with this: https://lineage.microg.org/

I’m aiming for a used Pixel 5 and GrapheneOS. GrapheneOS seems to have the most focus on breaking entirely away from Google services.

GrapheneOS has been a dream so far on my used Pixel 4.

Turns out Android can be pleasant when you don't have to deal with oem ui changes and non-optional bloatware.

Re: Apple already scans iCloud Mail for CSAM, but not iCloud Photos

#59

Post by ajh13 »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #49
anonuser123456 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an alternative, more reasonable way to look at the Apple proposal. The scanning occurs in order to upload files to iCloud photos. Your device is attesting that data you upload to iCloud photos is not pre-established CSAM. If you do not like the privacy implications of having your content inspected locally, on your device, simply choose another cloud photo provider and turn off iCloud photos. You are told abo…

iOS doesn't allow other cloud photo services to upload in the background except via flaky hacks, so the choice for iPhone users is really between iCloud Photos and crippled alternatives.

I use NextCloud which syncs my photos from my iPhone to my in-home server. Then I use borgbackup to encrypt my photos/videos and send them to a cloud provider. All of it is automated and wasn't too much of a hassle to setup.

Re: Apple already scans iCloud Mail for CSAM, but not iCloud Photos

#60

Post by matthewdgreen »

anonuser123456 wrote: post #42
rdudek wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is correct. I have no problems of them scanning my icloud mail or photos. I just don't like the idea of there being a system level scanner for a hash database on my device assuming that I'm guilty until proven innocent. I was going to upgrade my iPhone this fall to latest model, now I'm very hesitant to do so and looking at alternatives.

There is an alternative, more reasonable way to look at the Apple proposal. The scanning occurs in order to upload files to iCloud photos. Your device is attesting that data you upload to iCloud photos is not pre-established CSAM. If you do not like the privacy implications of having your content inspected locally, on your device, simply choose another cloud photo provider and turn off iCloud photos. You are told abo…

iCloud Photos is a synchronization service that is integrated very tightly into the core iOS system. Even the basic APIs that allow apps to integrate with the system photo library are "iCloud aware" in the sense that the photo might not be on your device. iCloud Photos makes it possible to page photos on and off your device, which is a critical feature for people who can't afford to pay for the high-end iOS devices with extensive NVRAM storage.

You, as a user, can turn off iCloud Photos. But your device functionality will be limited. And you cannot replace that functionality with any third-party alternative that will have the same feature-set and access to the low-level device features: Apple ensures this through the design of their OS and its extensive security features.

There is a version of "you don't have to use iCloud Photos" in which Apple opens their OS to competing cloud services. But you can't say this is an option while also locking the device down to use one cloud provider.

Post reply on HN