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PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

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Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#311

Post by BrandoElFollito »

jaclaz wrote: post #236
jtnag wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My working theory is that in old times phones had rotary dial instead of key pad. Number 1 was the longest to dial, 9 was the shortest (as I remember from childhood days). Thus, fastest way to dial 3 digit code was to use numbers with as much as 9 as possible (997,998,999).

I would add that 911 is a "queer" choice (for rotary phones), in other countries the emergency numbers are lowish numbers, in Italy 112 or 113 (or 115), and there are several records in the past of people managing to "dial" them by quickly pushing and releasing the hook switch. There was another reason for this as it was common, many, many years ago, to restrict the possibility to make phone calls by using a little l…

> in Italy 112

Did you introduce the EU emergency number as the national one? If so - good choice.

In France we have the plethora of numbers (15, 17, 18 - I actually do not know what 16 does), and also 112.

We are still teaching "18" as the primary number (you get the firemen who will either come for a fire, or for an accident, or dispatch). We could go for 112 (and keep the older number for a generation, redirecting them to 112) and not rely on people to know which number to call.

UPDATE: I just asked my 17 yo son which number he would call in an emergency and he said 112. So there is hope :)

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#312

Post by 35fbe7d3d5b9 »

necovek wrote: post #75

There are multiple levels of protection one might want. I.e. when you are being selected for random questioning entering US as a non-US citizen, you'd benefit from steganography-like approach: you give a password, and relatively bland, non-personal stuff shows up, giving appearance of full access to a system. If you only care about your privacy, the next one is to have a destroy-everything script (and it's not that h…

> I.e. when you are being selected for random questioning entering US as a non-US citizen, you'd benefit from steganography-like approach: you give a password, and relatively bland, non-personal stuff shows up, giving appearance of full access to a system.

DO NOT DO THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE unless you have first talked with a lawyer about this idea.

18 USC 1001 says (in part):

> whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact shall be fined under this title [and] imprisoned not more than 5 years

Prosecuting lies to federal agents is a very common technique used by US Attorneys to essentially bootstrap felony charges[1], and federal courts have stretched "materiality" pretty far[2] so saying "oh, I didn't have anything illegal on the 'secret partition'" might not save you.

IANAL, but this looks awfully close to a felony.

[1] https://www.popehat.com/2010/02/26/rule-2-go-re-read-rule-1/

[2] https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#313

Post by jaywalk »

o-__-o wrote: post #181
Spooky23 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite rumors to the contrary, the police aren’t stupid. They are trained to ask questions in ways that elicit a confession or falsehood. The simplest example is asking “Do you know why I pulled you over?”. Typically, people spontaneously confess to speeding, sometimes they break down and admit that someone is wrapped up in a rug in the trunk. The courts have consistently ruled that customs is different and you can…

>The simplest example is asking “Do you know why I pulled you over?”. Typically, people spontaneously confess to speeding, sometimes they break down and admit that someone is wrapped up in a rug in the trunk. I was asked this once, after I read a hilarious reddit comment, and found myself in a similar situation. I looked at the cop and said "it's not because of the pot in my trunk is it?". "Step out and open your tru…

Yeah, what you did was not smart. If you're being pulled over for a minor traffic infraction and you already know that you're guilty, simply admitting to it is usually the best option. I've gotten out of many tickets this way, because cops really do appreciate when you're not trying to BS them.

I was also pulled over once and accused of running a stop sign that I knew I didn't run, because I had seen the cop sitting there as I pulled up to the stop sign and made extra sure to completely stop. Due to the time of day, I believe he was (illegally) fishing for a DUI stop, and had considered filing a complaint with the department but never did.

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#314

Post by oofoe »

oasisbob wrote: post #241
gorgoiler wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of interest, were you arrested? As part of a duress protocol — where your extortioner is likely observing you — law enforcement would be required to go through the motions of arresting you and taking you offsite. You can expect to be held for X hours regardless of whether they believed you had simply made a mistake. Long and unavoidable administrative delays make it much harder for villains to subvert protocols.…

No arrests. False alarms on silent alarm systems are common. Other factors made it clear that a real threat was unlikely. All orgs should consider locking out all employees for at least one uninterrupted week a year. Very easy way to shake out all sorts of problems.

My old company locked us out several years ago for a period of time that continues to be uninterrupted.

It certainly did shake out lots of problems...

(My point is that after having had that happen to me, if it EVER happens again and isn't cleared up within minutes, the sonic boom you hear will be my tactical resume deployment. I dismissed the warning signs as "minor glitches". Never again. However, if it is something planned and I agreed to it beforehand, I guess that's OK. On second reading, you might have been describing something like that.)

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#315

Post by dredmorbius »

shawnz wrote: post #92
dredmorbius wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The duress credentials keep the pipe wrench from being useful . They don't keep it from being applied .

If the pipe wrench is getting applied regardless, that's a much different situation. In that case you could simply not comply at all. The duress credentials are meant to create plausible deniability of non-compliance, by giving the appearance of a genuine login which just reveals nothing.

Revisiting:

Keep in mind that the duress credentials serve several purposes.

1. Give the appearance of compliance. It's possible that the investigator will be satisfied and abandon further search attempts. Wrench averted.

2. Provide the opportunity to perform a duress action, without the immediate appearance of doing so. This has a wide range of possibilities, including removing or disabling access to information, triggering warnings or notices to allies or supporters, revealing innocuous content, enabling a set of additional countermeasures (e.g., attacks from within the investigator's own space or network, or against the investigator's own tools, see Signal's response to Celebrite: https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/). Note that a protocol which denies the investigation subject access to a device would prevent this. The presumption that a subject would provide an access password provides opportunity for defences.

Whether or not the pipe wrench (or any analogous or equivalent means of coercion) is applied is almost a moot point. With a duress password, you're largely assuming it will be. The objective isn't to prevent the wrench. It's to render it ineffective.

Or at least that's the way I read it.

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#316

Post by nonameiguess »

pyuser583 wrote: post #263
nextlevelwizard wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>imprison an innocent person. Kind a hard word to use for an arrest. In many places police can arrest you for some period if they suspect you have committed a crime. This is no different. No need for sensational language.

In the US they can’t do anything unless they have “probable cause” you committed a crime. That’s broad, but it excludes “this guy pushed the number 6 three times in a row.” And “imprison” and “arrest” are pretty darn close. In the US, when you are arrested, you are usually searched, fingerprinted, and a mugshot is taken. The mugshot can become a public record. There are websites that match mugshots to names, and make…

People can be taken into protective custody without any suspicion they committed a crime, though typically this is mostly done with children and they're taken to foster care, not county detention. It has been used in the past to protect people from getting lynched after being publicly accused of a crime even if the police don't suspect them, and is used to protect confidential informants by arresting them along with everyone else just to keep up appearances, though in this case they usually agree to it in advance.

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#317

Post by inglor »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #276
pyuser583 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US they can’t do anything unless they have “probable cause” you committed a crime. That’s broad, but it excludes “this guy pushed the number 6 three times in a row.” And “imprison” and “arrest” are pretty darn close. In the US, when you are arrested, you are usually searched, fingerprinted, and a mugshot is taken. The mugshot can become a public record. There are websites that match mugshots to names, and make…

Probable cause isn't "pushed button multiple times" it is "silent alarm was triggered and this guy is on the only guy in the building". If US is doing stupid shit then US is doing stupid shit. What else can we expect a third world country to do? In civilized world you are processed yes, but since you are just arrested and not accused you will just be held until the pre-investigation has concluded

This thread is long dead and off the frontpage - and this likely won't be seen by anyone (or even you nextlevelwizard) but here goes.

> What else can we expect a third world country to do?

We can criticise the largest economy in the world as much as we want inside a browser developed mostly in the US on infrastructure (the internet) whose large parts were developed in the US talking on a website created and owned by a US based company investing capital in one of the largest tech markets in the world (the valley).

That said - the fact they have police/healthcare/tuition problems does not in fact make it a third-world county.

A developing country ("third world") is typically one with low human development index (HDI) (the US is "very high"). Low economic output (the US is the largest economy) etc.

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#318

Post by egberts1 »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #242
abestic9 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google called me wanting to confirm my business address and asked me a bunch of personal details, as well as a 6 digit code that was going to be sent to my number (the one they called me on?). I refused and told them to give me a number to call them back on and they said they didn't have that facility. I then asked if they could email me or point me to a form and they said they could only do it on that same call. Aft…

> told them to give me a number to call them back on I hope you managed to communicate that you needed it to be able to independently verify that this number belonged to the purported caller. Eg, if it's from your "credit card company", the number should show up on the credit card company's website.

ummmm, caller ID are easily spoofed, no?

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#319

Post by Symbiote »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #311
jaclaz wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add that 911 is a "queer" choice (for rotary phones), in other countries the emergency numbers are lowish numbers, in Italy 112 or 113 (or 115), and there are several records in the past of people managing to "dial" them by quickly pushing and releasing the hook switch. There was another reason for this as it was common, many, many years ago, to restrict the possibility to make phone calls by using a little l…

> in Italy 112 Did you introduce the EU emergency number as the national one? If so - good choice. In France we have the plethora of numbers (15, 17, 18 - I actually do not know what 16 does), and also 112. We are still teaching "18" as the primary number (you get the firemen who will either come for a fire, or for an accident, or dispatch). We could go for 112 (and keep the older number for a generation, redirecting…

The EU standardised on 112 a few years ago. Old numbers continue to work.

Also, the GSM system (so almost all mobile phones, world wide) must support 112.

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#320

Post by cmehdy »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #311
jaclaz wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add that 911 is a "queer" choice (for rotary phones), in other countries the emergency numbers are lowish numbers, in Italy 112 or 113 (or 115), and there are several records in the past of people managing to "dial" them by quickly pushing and releasing the hook switch. There was another reason for this as it was common, many, many years ago, to restrict the possibility to make phone calls by using a little l…

> in Italy 112 Did you introduce the EU emergency number as the national one? If so - good choice. In France we have the plethora of numbers (15, 17, 18 - I actually do not know what 16 does), and also 112. We are still teaching "18" as the primary number (you get the firemen who will either come for a fire, or for an accident, or dispatch). We could go for 112 (and keep the older number for a generation, redirecting…

If you can read french, here's a page about why 16 isn't used (anymore!) https://www.guichetdusavoir.org/viewtopic.php?t=36236

TL;DR Running out of numbers and putting in temporary measures requiring the 16 as prefix. Measures that likely didn't scale as well as expected since we moved on to a different system within basically 10 years.

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