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ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

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Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#231
post #173

This makes me wonder, why don't they produce semiconductors themselves instead of selling the machines to produce them?

> why don't they produce semiconductors themselves

Apart from the different field of expertise at play (think manufacturing cooking equipment vs running a full-scale canteen), there's also environmental concerns. Looks like ASML has outsourced much of the production of key components to 3rd-party countries.

Electronics manufacturing has a considerable environmental impact (see articles about chemical soil/water pollution in china) and global north countries are happy to have others exploit their population and damage their environment in their place. This is similar to how the "recycling" industry operates.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#232
post #20

Twitter won't show complete threads now without an account. :( Twitter accounts basically de facto require a phone number, or they get suspended.

Yep, I feel bad for many of the less technical "rubes" who still believe they're somewhat anonymous on the internet if they, e.g. use Incognito (which Google went out of their way to market as such), or buy some dubious VPN service, or use disposable emails on Reddit, Twitter, etc. accounts. You are simply not anonymous on any site you visit or search you make or place you go with your phone. The tech giants and thei…

I agree with your sentiment there's political blackmail at work in big organizations, but you may be surprised to learn that it's not all/just anti-Trump. Trump is rightfully seen as a racist tyrant-to-be in liberal circles, but still has and had a lot of institutional/corporate support (which got him in power in the first place, and helped him attempt a coup early this year).

Just imagine what life is like as an anti-nationalist anti-capitalist worker. In most fields it's NOT an easy position to hold, because you've got both the good-thinking liberals and the hardcore fascists against you. And here we're just talking about ideas which are not written on your forehead, but the situation globally is really bad for women and people of color (for example) in a lot of industries/institutions.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#233
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if a geolocation cannot be falsified :)

Can geolocation easily be falsified? Sure you can jam GPS, but can you easily falsify it? I'm not an expert, but I was surprised to learn that GPS chips aren't as simple as I imagined. E.g. to get a "normal" (civilian I guess) licence you have to manufacture your chips so that they shut down if the object is moving too quickly (otherwise it could be used for missiles).

> was surprised to learn that GPS chips aren't as simple as I imagined.

On that you are very right.

I'm often amazed by GPS, or any of the other GNSS technologies really.

A fleck as big as a thumbnail which can communicate with multiple satellites wizzing-by to lock your location within 10s of meters. The fleck contains the antenna, the RF frontend, signal locking and tracking circuit, and a small computer to provide the navigational solution from the observables. And you get all this wonder super cheap.

The whole system, the space vehicles, the ground segment is of course very expensive, but somehow the militaries of the world decided that they will you use all of that for free. If you would write this in a sci-fi I would trash your manuscript immediately. Except somehow it is not science fiction. It is reality.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Optiver hires in Amsterdam with comparable compensation to top US companies.

Unrelated to this thread, but I always found 'optiver' such a weird name for a Dutch company. Sounds to me like "optiefer". "Optiefen" is a Dutch way of saying "fuck off".

OPTIe VERkoop :-)

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true in general. In this case, however, there are no efforts I am aware of in the industry that can catch them. Their technological lead is so great, in so many subsystem and science areas, it's likely they will be defacto monopoly in this space for 20 years.

I don't understand this. They made it, surely someone else can too? Are we on the verge of a bunch of industries using hyperspecialization as a monopoly justifier? I mean this sounds just like what I used to hear pre-Snowden about DARPA and the NSA etc, 20 years ahead of the public.

I know. It's difficult to comprehend the scope of science that is required to make this system work as a production machine.

For example, the surface they are printing the chip circuits on has layers of material, say, tungsten, that have thicknesses measured in atoms. As in, 'I need a layer of tungsten 100 atoms thick'. At that scale, the surface is 'bumpy' to the point that you must re-focus each time the wafer/lens moves to the next region on the wafer. This is a mechanical adjustment at atomic scale that has to happen very fast, or you'll never get enough wafers through the machine to pay for it. The solution to just this one subsystem of moving and refocusing required a decade of R&D and dozens of scientists and engineers to get fast enough, reliable enough, repeatable enough to be useful in a production setting.

Yes, others can make a system like this, with a similar amount of R&D spend and personnel and time. They would have to move faster than ASML to ever catch them. They'd have to budget 20 years, 100s of staff and a very large capital budget. In 20 years, ASML will be that much further down the road.

Here is a short animation of the optics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skUCP2f4HIM

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit on how this played out: what they call their first 10nm node which in its third iteration has been named Intel 7 was more aggressive than TSMC's first 7 nm node, and failed for many years to economically produce chips. Both use 193 nm UV lithography, and then TSMC made a more aggressive than Intel's node using some EUV from ASML, and both TSMC nodes worked. Now TSMC is two major nodes ahead with 3 nm risk produ…

Doesn’t this mean the Intel is done? Intel has never designed chips with innovation that matches the quality of AMD, Apple, and Nvidia. I just don’t see how they survive as a fabless.

Doesn’t this mean the Intel is done? Intel has never designed chips with innovation that matches the quality of AMD, Apple, and Nvidia.

That's frankly not true, for example see them along with a few others not including the above companies reviving the out-of-order technology IBM first developed for its System 360 supercomputers, for Intel first in the Pentium Pro.

Culturally I doubt they can shift to fabless although we'll be able to tell if they're really trying by seeing mass layoffs of managers, and I've very concerned they didn't recruit a fab guy to be their CEO although I wonder if no one qualified was willing to take the position. Another argument against that is their placeholder CEO who'd previously been their CFO actually had a clue, I suppose wasn't part of one of the factions involved in the fab debacles, decided to go fabless, and his strategy was junked by the new CEO.

In general I don't see a path to victory for them given my guess that they won't be able to regain their ability to move to new nodes that can make economical chips. Although I haven't investigated their third iteration of their 10 nm node, now Intel 7, need to spend more time reading Semiwiki etc. and also see if there's any sign they're going to get their first EUV node, Intel 4, working in any practical time frame, it's already delayed.

On the other hand, AMD has done it again, spent a huge amount of their capital on this time an FPGA company; at best that means they believe they don't have anything better to devote resources to, which is bad news for their AMD64 ecosystem. If you've followed their history going back decades, it was said a while ago over the long term they've never made money for their stockholders, and they've repeatedly gained serious leads only to blow them, raise your hand if you once used one of the 100MHz 486DX4s. Just like Intel's cultural problems, I suspect this aspect of AMD's culture will give Intel breathing room sooner or later, as it did when K8 got long in the tooth.

Apple isn't even in the running unless they decide to start selling their ARM SoCs to third parties. Who gives a damn about those if you're not in the Apple ecosystem, which has it's own problems. Nvidia if allowed to buy ARM will I expect destroy that ecosystem, certainly make it uncompetitive, including eliminating competition they would be facing thus likely making them complacent.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will not be able to steal enough technology, nor will they be able to manage the organization that reproduces it.

Why steal if money is no object? If there truly was enough motivation in whatever circles these decisions get made in, they could just offer all the top folks at ASML an eight figure or nine figure salary package. The fact that this hasn't happened yet suggests that it's not as critical as it's made to sound like, or at least those key decision makers don't believe so.

Ironically, the very thing that everyone assumes will allow China to dominate appears to be hamstringing them: politics.

China can say they have a priority on domestic semiconductor production, and they can throw obscene amounts of money at the problem.

But ultimately, something that takes 10+ years to develop isn't appetizing for China's current political climate. It needs to be the best, yesterday.

Consequently, they'll continue throwing money at whoever promises results next year, and starving whoever says it can't be done but offers a realistic plan to eventual dominance.

Capitalism sucks in many ways, but decentralized command economies (national government commands, local supplies) are about the worst of all possible worlds for high knowledge, long lead time, heavy research industries.

Which is why you saw the Soviets do pretty well at heavy industry, but not so well at computers.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#238
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then what? Probably a fight that will result in one of the greatest blows to the global economy ever, as well as the collapse of China as we know it today. The Taiwanese will destroy all the fabs before China can take them. We already have a chip shortage, can you imagine what it will be like to cut current supplies by another 40-50%? The resulting sanctions alone would cripple China. Hence, status quo will remain, a…

I’m not sure the status quo will remain. The Chinese respond very emotional whenever Taiwan gets mentioned. Don’t bank too much on China acting rational.

Chinese aggression toward Taiwan is inversely correlated with China's domestic economy and political stability.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#239
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can geolocation easily be falsified? Sure you can jam GPS, but can you easily falsify it? I'm not an expert, but I was surprised to learn that GPS chips aren't as simple as I imagined. E.g. to get a "normal" (civilian I guess) licence you have to manufacture your chips so that they shut down if the object is moving too quickly (otherwise it could be used for missiles).

> was surprised to learn that GPS chips aren't as simple as I imagined. On that you are very right. I'm often amazed by GPS, or any of the other GNSS technologies really. A fleck as big as a thumbnail which can communicate with multiple satellites wizzing-by to lock your location within 10s of meters. The fleck contains the antenna, the RF frontend, signal locking and tracking circuit, and a small computer to provide…

It makes sense when you think about its evolution.

GPS capability delivers incredible military advantage. (See: Gulf War)

Consequently, US government funds constellation. Because money is no object vs the military advantage.

Because of the nature of GPS, receivers (devices) can more or less be iterated independently of transmitters (satellites).

US government allows civilian use (with reduced accuracy) for economic and geopolitical reasons.

Commercial market rapidly iterates on the device technology (smaller, faster, cheaper).

Transmitters are upgraded and enhanced, as expanding commercial market now justifies expense. Eventually accuracy limitations dropped.

We end up at today.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#240
post #139

A few highlights from a conversation with a friend who works for Zeiss and regularly deals with ASML (take this with a grain of salt, I may have misunderstood some of it and he also may not be an expert in all of these areas): - The lenses (actually mirrors for EUV) only demagnify by a factor of 4. So your wafer template is already extremely small and costs millions to produce. - 13.5nm is pretty much the smallest wa…

> Also in the thread, ASML has a monopoly on this tech. Others have not invested into EUV and by now, it's pretty much impossible for anybody to catch up.

This is essentially true, but people need to keep in mind this is not like when we say Apple has a monopoly, or something.

The capital equipment market is very different than consumer markets. For example in 2019 it's estimated ASML sold 26 EUV machines, in total. Analysis are super excited because this might go to 41 in 2021.

https://blog.visiblealpha.com/asml-euv-monopoly-may-stack-ch...

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