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Competitive programming is useless

kislayverma.com

21–30 of 157 posts

Re: Competitive programming is useless

#21
post #16

> Assuming for a minute that students from lesser tier colleges are less smart (possibly untrue but again a discussion for another day) Let’s discuss it now: they are NOT ‘less smart.’

obviously we are talking about statistics, so of course specific examples exist that run counter to the trend. But without a doubt, I am 100% certain that on average the incoming CS class to MIT is smarter than students in the cs program at some very low ranked state school. you can see the difference in which textbooks the school uses. It would be impossible to teach real analysis with Rudin at an average school or…

don’t mean to detract from the conversation, but isn’t math 55 just elementary algebra and analysis? surely this is insufficient at the vast majority of schools to constitute a math degree

Re: Competitive programming is useless

#22
I did competitive programming. I believe you need to push yourself to your limits to understand what your limits are and why you may have some. It helps with self-understanding. One can then figure out how to go further, faster.

On a side node, it was in competitive coding that I first ran into students using Ritalin for performance enhancement. Until then I had never run into it before.

Re: Competitive programming is useless

#23
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

obviously we are talking about statistics, so of course specific examples exist that run counter to the trend. But without a doubt, I am 100% certain that on average the incoming CS class to MIT is smarter than students in the cs program at some very low ranked state school. you can see the difference in which textbooks the school uses. It would be impossible to teach real analysis with Rudin at an average school or…

Better prepared I would say. There are plenty of kids that don't get the opportunity to show how smart they are. They grow up in the projects, have to work nights to help their family, some have to join gangs to survive. You swap they're upbringing with someone who's parents got to spend 100k on their high school education, provide them the things like a car, so they don't have to ride the bus a hour to and from scho…

while I agree, that very smart children can be victims of their childhoods, not everyone can prep their way into MIT. that is why Harvard and Yale are more prestigious, its more associated with the powerful, not purely the most academically inclined.

To be clear I grew up fairly poor myself with no support system, but not that bad with violence, just trailer park poor, you can tell smart children at a very young age, kindergarten it will be obvious if a student is mathematically gifted(for whatever that is worth, it is certainly not the end all be all indicator of future success).

my point is that MIT will have a higher percentage of mathematically gifted students, because it isn't something that can be prepped for.

I guess I would be curious on how much a difference it really is , if you could completely control for environment, but even then the difference still exists.

Re: Competitive programming is useless

#25
post #21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

obviously we are talking about statistics, so of course specific examples exist that run counter to the trend. But without a doubt, I am 100% certain that on average the incoming CS class to MIT is smarter than students in the cs program at some very low ranked state school. you can see the difference in which textbooks the school uses. It would be impossible to teach real analysis with Rudin at an average school or…

don’t mean to detract from the conversation, but isn’t math 55 just elementary algebra and analysis? surely this is insufficient at the vast majority of schools to constitute a math degree

algebra, analysis, topology. That is about what the average mathematics curriculum consists of.

Maybe we have different definitions of average, which seems to be a hacker news bias, schools in the top 40 are not average by definition

, but many many schools offering math degrees don't even offer classes beyond that level.

Re: Competitive programming is useless

#26
EDIT: TLDR: There are bigger issues at play at the country's economic level that students take up skills (CP) to get the best paying job possible. This in turn drives companies to make interviews harder to separate rote memorizers from the crowd. I don't see this going away anytime soon and although I agree that leetcode questions aren't the best measure, there is no better alternative as an interviewer to quickly filter out candidates.

---

> As a response, college students now pursue competitive programming obsessively to stay on top. In this weird arms race against prospective hires, companies keep asking harder and harder questions in a misguided attempt to raise the bar.

You should understand that more students pick it up because of the higher salary offered in the tech industry in your country (India) and this is one of the best bets to lift themselves and their families economically. To be fair, I don't blame them, majority would pick up ~CP~ because it has the highest returns for the effort put in. It's a fault in the system, not the students.

Personally I would be wary of anyone who says only competitive programming excites them. I feel that testing algorithms and data structures in some slightly realistic situation is the only way to weed out the pretenders.

Anecdotally, I have interviewed screening rounds from junior to senior. The juniors who pretend to like programming are usually filtered out when I change the application of the data structure slightly as compared to a leetcode/geeksforgeeks question. Something as simple as "reverse a paragraph/sentence" as opposed to "reverse a string".

Mid level candidates are the most difficult to filter out and this is exactly where the leetcode type questions come into the picture. They are able to talk about their projects as if they designed the entire stack. I have seen them draw the system design diagrams, tell me pros and cons of the stack/tech chosen, but they would usually fail in easy/medium level leetcode questions.

Seniors are the easiest to filter. We give them the easiest question possible and ask them to solve it. This is done with a huge disclaimer that this is a screening round and that the intention is to see you can actually write code and answer questions about it in real time. Questions are easy array/string leetcode setting them up for success. The good ones just finish it up in hardly 10 mins and move on the the design round following immediately. The bad ones just beat around the bush saying they wont code despite the disclaimer. The really bad ones are ones who cite N yoe so they shouldn't be tested on coding (this is when the senior dev steps in and recommends not to proceed with the interview anymore).

Coming back to the article, unless you have candidates/people who are actually interested in building software, and only when other jobs around you on avg pay a decent amount of salary for the place you live in, I am positive people will do everything they can to get the best ROI to become more sustainable in life. This is evident in > 5 yoe hires when people are in a more stable posn in tech economically and as interviewees they realise what they like/dislike and as interviewers you can discern whether they can actually do the job properly.

Re: Competitive programming is useless

#27

I understand the rant but I would like to hire someone who are good at solving problems (of any kind) and can detect the edge cases very well and without deep math or competitive programming knowledge, it's not possible at all these days. However, I am an undergrad myself and sometimes I take pride in being a generalist, spent my fair share of time on every abstraction layers of CS possible. Now that I'm in my final…

“ but I would like to hire someone who are good at solving problems (of any kind) and can detect the edge cases very well and without deep math or competitive programming knowledge, it's not possible at all these days.”

You shouldn’t be so opinionated before you’ve entered the work place. If you find, after a few years of experience, that this is true then fine.

Re: Competitive programming is useless

#28
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

obviously we are talking about statistics, so of course specific examples exist that run counter to the trend. But without a doubt, I am 100% certain that on average the incoming CS class to MIT is smarter than students in the cs program at some very low ranked state school. you can see the difference in which textbooks the school uses. It would be impossible to teach real analysis with Rudin at an average school or…

Better prepared I would say. There are plenty of kids that don't get the opportunity to show how smart they are. They grow up in the projects, have to work nights to help their family, some have to join gangs to survive. You swap they're upbringing with someone who's parents got to spend 100k on their high school education, provide them the things like a car, so they don't have to ride the bus a hour to and from scho…

It ultimately comes down to nurture vs nature.

My opinion is that nurture affects nature, so yes if we optimize childhood development it would naturally lead to better outcomes.

However I do believe people have a “natural” ceiling based on genetics. Meaning that no matter how great your nurture environment is, you could never become a top NBA basketball player or a Nobel prize winner.

Now I’m not saying MIT is either of those things, but it’s certainly difficult to get in and not simply a by-product of your “nurture” environment but some interplay with your “nature”. Although I’m sure with a timely $20M gift from your parents your chances of getting in would increase substantially, regardless of your qualifications.

Re: Competitive programming is useless

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm someone outside USA. Can you clarify your comparison between state vs community?

State University: typical higher-learning university that requires application and awards degrees. Funded in part by its US state via taxes. Community College: no application, no traditional degrees, no prior learning required. Often vocation in focus. Adult classes. Anyone can attend (dropouts, elderly, anyone). You even just sign up for individual classes. You, 8589934591, could likely sign up for an online class n…

Just for my understanding. Is the person who I replied to saying that even though state univ are "considered" better, their personal experience is that community college (which is considered inferior to state) students performed better?

Re: Competitive programming is useless

#30
Competitive programming is useless, but most things are useless! And here "useful" only means useful in the context of building and evaluating skills for industry. But my friends who do competitive programming do it because it's fun, and some of them don't even want to work in tech when they graduate!

There is a kind of pleasure in connecting the pipes and optimizing the loops and building a sick dynamic programming recurrence relation or whatever; we desire these flows. Who cares what skills they build?

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