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George Mason professor wins Covid antibody lawsuit as vaccine exemption

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Re: George Mason professor wins Covid antibody lawsuit as vaccine exemption

#111

Post by jokethrowaway »

framecowbird wrote: post #37
ampgt wrote: post #12

How did we get to a point where we think it’s OK to tell someone what they should do with their body? For the record: I am vaccinated and I always encourage others to do so. But what is the difference between someone choosing to not vaccinate “because of their religion” and just choosing not to vaccinate? Why is one of those OK and the other isn’t?

I'm not disagreeing with you regarding vaccination. However, there is a long history of the state telling people what they should do with their body. The two most obvious examples are drug usage and abortion. Why do we accept that but are suddenly outraged by vaccination? Vaccination mandates aren't new either: many countries will not even let you enter unless you are vaccinated against yellow fever. I think there ar…

Abortion is different as it's someone else life. If you kill a baby in your belly, you're still ending another life and violating the non aggression principle. If the pregnancy is threatening your life, then you could justify it.

In regards to drugs - I think any sort of government interference is horribly wrong. Likewise, if I want to kill myself, that's on me.

Re: George Mason professor wins Covid antibody lawsuit as vaccine exemption

#112

Post by mlac »

Grimm1 wrote: post #57
s1artibartfast wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if there was a medical treatment prbabisticly reduced aggression, violence, or other antisocial behavior?

Well today if you were to punch me you'd likely be on trial for assault, and if you killed me, murder. Antisocial behaviors generally aren't legally punishable until they're taken out on someone else. In this case, if you choose not to get the vaccine and then through contact tracing or some other mechanism an outbreak is traced to you when you could have gotten a vaccine? Assault sounds correct to me and if you kill…

I am vaccinated and pro-vaccine, but it is not “zero issues”. There are side effects with the vaccines, and some of them are significant (partial paralysis).

The numbers still work that we should get vaccinated, but it’s unclear if people who have the worst side effects from the vaccine would be the same ones who would have suffered the worst effects of COVID (death).

So I get it - if you’re young, healthy, and unlikely to die from COVID, it is a non-zero (very, very small) risk from talking the vaccine. But I still think people should get the shot.

Re: George Mason professor wins Covid antibody lawsuit as vaccine exemption

#113

Post by Daishiman »

cosmotic wrote: post #106
threatofrain wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't it been this way since forever? Firstly, the US has always granted special exceptions to religion for many public policy requirements. You can complain about how it's unfair, but it's likely that the public needle of opinion won't budge past a threshold within this lifetime. Secondly, there have already been widespread medical requirements for all sorts of aspects of public life, and this hasn't been controver…

We should at least try to budge that needle. As long as that argument is used, it won't budge. We gotta budge it despite the argument.

Why?

Re: George Mason professor wins Covid antibody lawsuit as vaccine exemption

#115

Post by filoleg »

olivermarks wrote: post #87
threatofrain wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't it been this way since forever? Firstly, the US has always granted special exceptions to religion for many public policy requirements. You can complain about how it's unfair, but it's likely that the public needle of opinion won't budge past a threshold within this lifetime. Secondly, there have already been widespread medical requirements for all sorts of aspects of public life, and this hasn't been controver…

I'm an immigrant into the USA and was never 'required to be immunized'

What's your definition of "immigrant into the USA" here?

You aren't required to get immunized for H1B and a number of other visas, but for green card (aka permanent resident card), you are absolutely required to get a general medical exam + screen for TB + get up to date on all your vaccinations. You need to do it shortly before the green card interview, because you are expected to bring those papers with you for the interview.

Re: George Mason professor wins Covid antibody lawsuit as vaccine exemption

#116

Post by bingohbangoh »

masklinn wrote: post #25
ampgt wrote: post #12

How did we get to a point where we think it’s OK to tell someone what they should do with their body? For the record: I am vaccinated and I always encourage others to do so. But what is the difference between someone choosing to not vaccinate “because of their religion” and just choosing not to vaccinate? Why is one of those OK and the other isn’t?

> How did we get to a point where we think it’s OK to tell someone what they should do with their body? That’s absolutely not new in any way? Public health has always been a force majeure trigger. > Why is one of those OK and the other isn’t? They’re not, but it can be quite difficult to impossible to push back against religious communities as they’ve managed to carve out lots of assumptions that you’re supposed to r…

What historical public health measures exist that are as invasive as a needle in my body on a regular basis?

Non-COVID vaccinations are not the same thing here. The typical American booster shots are administered far, _far_ less frequently. They don't require yearly (or every 6mo) shots to be effective.

These non-COVID vaccinations also don't require me to, say, not participate in society (per the recent vaccine mandates in swaths of Western Europe). As for schools, I knew many kids whose parents chose not to get them vaccinated when I was growing up. It was tougher to get those exemptions at the University level, but still not impossible. The way these vaccination rules are playing out, thus far anyway, are trying to make it impossible to not be vaccinated no matter what the reason. Nobody cares what your reason is, even if its medically related. [0]

Also of note is that those non-COVID vaccinations work really really well. The COVID vaccinations are far less effective, as the increasing rates in places like Israel or Gibralter show. It should be noted that, at least thus far, its better to be vaccinated than non-vaccinated as the former are less likely to have severe symptoms battling the disease. But these are hardly the polio vaccine, _at least not yet_ as a better vaccine may come along.

[0]: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9806345/Incoming-fr...

Re: George Mason professor wins Covid antibody lawsuit as vaccine exemption

#117

Post by maxerickson »

fatbird wrote: post #28
jbluepolarbear wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did we get to the point where so many people would rather risk death and the death of many others than receive a free vaccine? They’re putting themself and all peoples that interact with them at serious risk.

To the point where they not only refuse the vaccines, but take Ivermectin, an anti-parasatic proven for farm livestock because the buzz in the conservative monkeysphere says it's a cure-all.

Don't be a sheep and take the highly safe and effective vaccine, take livestock drugs instead.

Re: George Mason professor wins Covid antibody lawsuit as vaccine exemption

#118

Post by ScottBurson »

criticaltinker wrote: post #102
woofie11 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spirited and informed debate: Virtually everything I see suggests that the effect is bimodal: 1. Everyone gets vaccinated at the same time, and the disease goes away. Not a lot of disease means not a lot of mutations. 2. No one gets vaccinated, and there is no such effect. If immune escape is an issue, it seems like the solution would be 100% MANDATORY vaccinations, and to perform vaccinations all at once, region by…

> Everyone gets vaccinated at the same time [...] region by region, so there are no populations which mix vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals This is logistically impossible and completely unrealistic. If you can find any literature or any experts suggesting that this is feasible, please share. > and the disease goes away Even if we did manage do achieve what you suggested, the current vaccines do not guarantee s…

As a recommendation to individuals, the suggestion to seek early treatment -- indeed, to apply certain treatments immediately to oneself -- is, I believe, sound, and I second it.

But the situation as regards public health policy and messaging is more complicated. Denial is among the most human of emotional patterns; many people do not want to face the possibility that they've contracted a dread disease, and will procrastinate seeking treatment until they are quite ill. Altering that behavior on a large scale strikes me as a very heavy lift; but that is what we would have to do to pursue a public health strategy that leans heavily on early treatment. If you think it's doable anyway, why has no other country done it?

That said, the risk of vaccine escape seems to be real. Perhaps that's why the CDC is telling us to expect boosters.

Re: George Mason professor wins Covid antibody lawsuit as vaccine exemption

#119

Post by landemva »

loxias wrote: post #70
ampgt wrote: post #12

How did we get to a point where we think it’s OK to tell someone what they should do with their body? For the record: I am vaccinated and I always encourage others to do so. But what is the difference between someone choosing to not vaccinate “because of their religion” and just choosing not to vaccinate? Why is one of those OK and the other isn’t?

> "How did we get to a point..." Every day, we all make tradeoffs as part of the price to pay for living in society. This is not a new thing. (and I assert it's counterproductive and anti-social behavior (harmful to society, the opposite of pro-social, not meaning "introverted") to assert that it is.) I can't build a DIY rocket powered car and drive it around town. It might hurt people, regardless of my intentions or…

'I can't even drive a store bought car without a drivers license.'

If you are a corporation or business, that is generally true. If you are using a conveyance in your personal capacity, then you are not regulated unless you voluntarily sign up to be licensed. Your choice.

"For while a citizen has the right to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, that right does not extend to the use of the highways...as a place for private gain. For the latter purpose, no person has a vested right to use the highways of this state, but it is a privilege...which the (state) may grant or withhold at its discretion..." State v. Johnson, 75 Mont. 240, 243 P. 1073 (1926)"

Re: George Mason professor wins Covid antibody lawsuit as vaccine exemption

#120

Post by javagram »

selimthegrim wrote: post #109
javagram wrote: post #99

I support vaccine mandates (best way to move society past the pandemic), but an exemption for those with healthy immune systems who can prove via an antibody test or previous positive Covid-19 PCR test that they have naturally developed COVID antibodies after surviving an infection makes sense to me. In the 19th century, yellow fever survivors were considered to be “acclimated citizens” who were more eligible for job…

This created immense social divisions in cities like New Orleans, and opponents of "immunity passports" are wary of this.

That’s true, but it’s because at the time the only way to become acclimated was to catch yellow fever, which meant running a substantial risk of dying or severe disease.

In the 21st century we have safe vaccines so if someone is not “acclimated” or immune to a virus, they can gain the status easily via a free and safe vaccine. This removes the problems.

In any case, the discussion here is not about immunity passports themselves. It’s about whether only a vaccine should count, or if proof of natural infection should also count as equivalent to a vaccine record.

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