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The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#181

Post by thaumasiotes »

sib wrote: post #173
gpsx wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is the point. The original saying is Hindsight is 20/20, implying it is very accurate. This version of the statement contradicts that, implying you can't really say what would have happened if things were different.

But 50/50 would be effectively the same meaning as 20/20. (20/20 means "person being tested sees as well at 20 feet as standard vision at 20 feet.")

> But 50/50 would be effectively the same meaning as 20/20.

This isn't obvious; consider that having 3,000/3,000 vision ("I can't read text all that well when it's half a mile away") says pretty much nothing about how clearly you can see things that are 20 feet away.

Nearsightedness and farsightedness are both characterized by "normal vision" at certain distances which becomes markedly worse at certain other distances.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#182

Post by [deleted] »

throwawayboise wrote: post #149
anigbrowl wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever noticed that the people who reject model-derived predictions for things like pandemic and climate are extremely confident about their economic forecasting ability? If only some of these super-geniuses would share their unquestionable brilliance with other fields, not to mention eliminating recessions and financial panics.

Why do we reject model-derived projections for the stock market and accept them for climate and disease?

[deleted]

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#183

Post by Godel_unicode »

spookthesunset wrote: post #131
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #35

Telegraph has an anti-lockdown agenda to push in the UK; it is not an impartial source here. In the UK the praise for the "Sweden model" comes particularly from the conservative-aligned pro-business anti-lockdown lobby; who are producing PR for their proposition that "lockdowns do more (economic) harm than they do (public health) good". Right or wrong, it's certainly not impartial reporting on a foreign country, it's…

Your argument is that we should ignore news media with an “anti lockdown” agenda? It may come as a surprise but not every smart, well meaning person supports the lockdowns. You can look at all the publicly available data and come to the conclusion that they were a colossal public health blunder. I would argue the pro lockdown crowd have a huge bias toward ignoring any bit of data that demonstrates lockdowns are a bad…

One part of the problem is that the debate got incredibly polarized with ad hominem and thinking of the children. The majority of people on the internet citing 'science' and 'data' (regardless of side) are people who have an opinion and found a fact to support it to which they then cling for dear life.

Another part of the problem is the degree to which our understanding of facts has evolved. Take, for instance, the body of evidence for and against PPE of all types and compare it to what was being said in March of 2020.

The major failing of public policy was, in my opinion, the inability to articulate the difference between what we knew and what we thought. This was enhanced and exacerbated by the public wanting answers now, and refusing to countenance "we don't know".

When historians looks back at this period of history, they are going to marvel at the degree to which we lionized people who "stuck to their guns" and the degree to which we denigrate people who change their opinion when the facts change.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#184

Post by MatteoFrigo »

ctvo wrote: post #95
lazyjones wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What "excess 10k dead"? Sweden basically only reported excess mortality in early 2020 and since then it has a mortality deficit.

I’m genuinely curious: Couldn’t a quick Google give you this data? Where did you get your position from? Lots of folks have post fact information these days, based on FB articles and other sources, but how did you end up with yours as a long time user here?

One good source of excess mortality data for a large part of Europe (plus Israel for some reason) is at https://euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/, which also groups data by age in addition to country.

It may come as a surprise that, in the area covered by this source, excess mortality for children age 0-14 was actually negative in 2020.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#185

Post by bmeski »

ctvo wrote: post #110
Ntrails wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. I think that fucking up the education of children, especially those from low socio-economic status backgrounds, is worse than the deaths not doing it causes. It is not that lockdown is bad or wrong. It is that I do not agree with all the things which were hit. I acknowledge there is a price to keeping education open but I believe it would have been worthwhile. Perhaps you missed my point? Governing is about more…

> Perhaps you missed my point? Governing is about more than keeping the most people alive. Actually I believe that’s table stakes for good governance. Trading known deaths for possible impact to development of children isn’t even in the realm of equal, which is why most places didn’t do it.

But we’ll trade thousands of lives to secure some nice minerals in Afghanistan. Cmon.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#186

Post by microtherion »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #35

Telegraph has an anti-lockdown agenda to push in the UK; it is not an impartial source here. In the UK the praise for the "Sweden model" comes particularly from the conservative-aligned pro-business anti-lockdown lobby; who are producing PR for their proposition that "lockdowns do more (economic) harm than they do (public health) good". Right or wrong, it's certainly not impartial reporting on a foreign country, it's…

Sweden not only had many more Covid-19 deaths than other Scandinavian countries they also have considerably higher unemployment:

https://twitter.com/Andreas_Hopf/status/1429523341510123528

So they traded more deaths for a WORSE economy (though, as far as I know, the part about self reported mental health is true).

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#187

Post by yodsanklai »

bachmeier wrote: post #125
yodsanklai wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden is a different country than Norway or Finland, even though they are neighbors. Also, being low population density is irrelevant (you could have a huge country with everybody crammed in a city, actually Stockholm is much denser than Oslo for instance). Also, even within a single country, fatality rates vary greatly. I don't think anybody knows how Sweden would have done with a different response to the Covid. I…

> I don't think anybody knows how Sweden would have done with a different response to the Covid. In any case, on an objective scale, I think they've done quite well and they had a less miserable experience than the rest of us. So first you claim we don't know. Then you claim they've "done quite well". Which is it? What was the purpose of the first sentence?

I'm claiming we don't know what would have happened under different policies (lockdown vs no lockdown) - and those who pretend otherwise don't have scientific evidence to back up their claims. Regardless, I'm claiming they've done quite well under all possible objective metrics compared to other European countries.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#188

Post by hkt »

danjac wrote: post #118
kybernetikos wrote: post #60

It's so weird to see people still claiming this. Sweden has relatively few neighbors, but compare it with any of them, and it looks bad https://imgur.com/a/BlaU2SX Yes, Sweden did well compared to the EU average, but a country with very low population density, surrounded by very few neighbors that all got the virus under control very quickly has a lot of things going for it compared to the European average. The diffe…

The Telegraph is essentially the mouthpiece of the British commercial property landlord classes, who have a vested interest in getting people back into the offices and shops in their portfolios. On an average day you'll notice multiple anti-remote working articles parroted by Cabinet ministers. Why should they care how businesses conduct their business, especially if it's more convenient and can lead to a happier and…

Where I live in Yorkshire we call it Tory Pravda. It seems to just be propelled ever onwards by contrarianism.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#189

Post by yodsanklai »

dijit wrote: post #105
yodsanklai wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden is a different country than Norway or Finland, even though they are neighbors. Also, being low population density is irrelevant (you could have a huge country with everybody crammed in a city, actually Stockholm is much denser than Oslo for instance). Also, even within a single country, fatality rates vary greatly. I don't think anybody knows how Sweden would have done with a different response to the Covid. I…

> Sweden is a different country than Norway or Finland Pedantic “every country is a different country” aside; Norway and Finland are absolutely fine comparatives. The population density (in the populated areas), culture and genetic make-up of these countries is so similar that they may as well be considered the same country socioeconomically. Hell, they used to even _be_ the same country (the union of Kalmar). I’ve l…

Your perception of a country doesn't make a scientific evidence on why Norway of Finland could be taken as reference point to assess Sweden strategy regarding Covid.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#190

Post by hkt »

overeater wrote: post #162
pharmakom wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marriage and friendship networks. Particularly those formed in the public school (“public” means paid in UK) system. I doubt it’s official meetings, but rather discussions outside work.

How are public schools paid in the UK? Does that mean private schools are the free schools? Or do they call free public schools something else?

The ones everyone else goes to are generally referred to as "state" schools.
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