Live data from Hacker News

The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

telegraph.co.uk

131–140 of 442 posts

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#131

Telegraph has an anti-lockdown agenda to push in the UK; it is not an impartial source here. In the UK the praise for the "Sweden model" comes particularly from the conservative-aligned pro-business anti-lockdown lobby; who are producing PR for their proposition that "lockdowns do more (economic) harm than they do (public health) good". Right or wrong, it's certainly not impartial reporting on a foreign country, it's…

Your argument is that we should ignore news media with an “anti lockdown” agenda?

It may come as a surprise but not every smart, well meaning person supports the lockdowns. You can look at all the publicly available data and come to the conclusion that they were a colossal public health blunder.

I would argue the pro lockdown crowd have a huge bias toward ignoring any bit of data that demonstrates lockdowns are a bad idea.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#132

I see a lot of articles about how government reactions were good or bad for COVID. I have seen nothing regarding how a country's environment and population density affect COVID, I guess it is hard to push an agenda with that narrative. It seems the country's that "responded" the best all have low population density and/or are physically isolated from other countries. I see people praising leadership from places like…

> I see people praising leadership from places like New Zealand and South Korea, but maybe it is just easy to keep people out of these places.

There's two components to this. The first is indeed that both countries are relatively isolated islands. Yes, South Korea is technically a peninsula, but the part that connects it to the mainland is separated by the best guarded border in the world, so...

But the second component is how the situation was (and still is) handled: instead of waiting for exponential growth of the rate of new infections, both countries went into full emergency mode immediately. South Korea in particular applied lessons learned during the SARS crisis about a decade earlier and invested heavily in automated testing equipment, etc.

In Europe, one of the critical failures was the inability to quickly and cost-effectively ramp up testing due to the lack of automated lab equipment.

Other critical aspects of disease control included traceability, which worked exceptionally well in South Korea due to the excellent cell coverage and prevalence of smartphone app usage (plus permissive and practical data protection laws) and willing participation and support of the population.

New Zealand is quick to order measures even if a single case is being reported. This prevents exponential spreading and keeps measures such as lock-downs short and reduces the overall negative impact.

So it's really not just the location, but a number of measures that most other countries simply failed to take.

The geography helps a lot, though, no question.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#133

Telegraph has an anti-lockdown agenda to push in the UK; it is not an impartial source here. In the UK the praise for the "Sweden model" comes particularly from the conservative-aligned pro-business anti-lockdown lobby; who are producing PR for their proposition that "lockdowns do more (economic) harm than they do (public health) good". Right or wrong, it's certainly not impartial reporting on a foreign country, it's…

Have you ever noticed that the people who reject model-derived predictions for things like pandemic and climate are extremely confident about their economic forecasting ability? If only some of these super-geniuses would share their unquestionable brilliance with other fields, not to mention eliminating recessions and financial panics.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#134
post #128
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Telegraph is essentially the mouthpiece of the British commercial property landlord classes, who have a vested interest in getting people back into the offices and shops in their portfolios. On an average day you'll notice multiple anti-remote working articles parroted by Cabinet ministers. Why should they care how businesses conduct their business, especially if it's more convenient and can lead to a happier and…

> The Telegraph is essentially the mouthpiece of the British commercial property landlord classes, who have a vested interest in getting people back into the offices and shops in their portfolios. I'm curious, how does it work in reality? A boardroom meetings where landlord's representative decide what to publish in the next issue to get people into commercial property? A weekly reviews of editors where they have the…

If you're part of a small group of people, it's easy to call your buddy when something bother you or a point of view you don't like gets published

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#135
post #128
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Telegraph is essentially the mouthpiece of the British commercial property landlord classes, who have a vested interest in getting people back into the offices and shops in their portfolios. On an average day you'll notice multiple anti-remote working articles parroted by Cabinet ministers. Why should they care how businesses conduct their business, especially if it's more convenient and can lead to a happier and…

> The Telegraph is essentially the mouthpiece of the British commercial property landlord classes, who have a vested interest in getting people back into the offices and shops in their portfolios. I'm curious, how does it work in reality? A boardroom meetings where landlord's representative decide what to publish in the next issue to get people into commercial property? A weekly reviews of editors where they have the…

Micromanging is not necessary. They just set the tone and don't hire people who would write anything opposed to their policy [1] which they rarely need to explicitly convey, although they do at times of course. People write things that they really like get rewarded.

"Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media" by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky explains how this work with a very large number of examples.

1. https://youtu.be/9RPKH6BVcoM

2. https://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Consent-Political-Econo...

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#136
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made you this chart of the UK pandemic. It's incomplete by necessity, but gives the flavor. Do the dates and lockdown measures look unrelated? https://imgur.com/a/026CGjK

You have that as a log chart? Here, I’ll do you better: https://www.covidchartsquiz.com/

It is a log chart! Look at the y axis. It's hard to see anything sensible on a linear chart.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#137
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notice the article doesn't mention countries where proper lockdown worked very well and took only around 100 days.

And what, pray tell is a “proper lockdown”? I hardly think NZ and AU are places to copy.

Taiwan had only a few weeks of full lockdown last year, and then a few months of softer lockdown during the second outbreak this year. During the recent outbreak it was WFH and takeout from restaurants with certain businesses closed. About 100 days later most things are open again.

They resisted a full lockdown and doubled down on contact tracing. Went from 500+ cases a day to just a few now.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#138

What I find particularly interesting is that Sweden wasn't the only country that did this -- Brazil also did a no-lockdown strategy, and it was basically a disaster there. Evidently, there must have been some other factors at play besides the boolean of lockdown true/false. Better healthcare, maybe?

This is speculation from my side, based on my interactions with health care in Sweden over the past year. They are good at distancing and precautions in situations where it probably matters a lot, health care settings. People that had cold symptoms didn't get mixed up with regular patients. Like sitting in a waiting room. If you were going to have a child and you were going to have a meeting with a nurse then you wer…

Hey downvoters, come and discuss instead. That makes for more intellectually curious discussions! edit: It was fixed, thanks ;)

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#139

Is it just me or there are A LOT of articles about how Sweden is better in doing X coming from the US and the UK recently? What's going on here? Frankly it seems a bit of nationalist content marketing after the 10th article I read in 3 years. Most of the times the articles claim Sweden is doing better X but that X could easily be applied to several other countries in Europe. "Sweden offers free health care and educat…

> Is Sweden activally investing resources to improve their perceived image?

Yes. Look at the About page on that site you found:

https://si.se/en/about-si/our-mission/

The Swedish Institute is a public agency that promotes interest and trust in Sweden around the world.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#140
Can we ban discussion of covid restrictions on HN ? At that point nobody is going to change his position.

Pro lockdown people will not change their opinion even if there are proof that masks mandate and lockdowns dont work

Anti lockdown people will not change their opinion even if there are proof that masks mandate and lockdowns works.

There is no point keep talking about it, unless you want to loose your time arguing with someone who will never agree with you.

There was a post on HN a few days ago "Why it is so hard to be rational ?" [1], it perfectly describes the current situation.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28197482

Post reply on HN