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The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#31

Post by cinntaile »

warning26 wrote: post #17

What I find particularly interesting is that Sweden wasn't the only country that did this -- Brazil also did a no-lockdown strategy, and it was basically a disaster there. Evidently, there must have been some other factors at play besides the boolean of lockdown true/false. Better healthcare, maybe?

This is speculation from my side, based on my interactions with health care in Sweden over the past year. They are good at distancing and precautions in situations where it probably matters a lot, health care settings. People that had cold symptoms didn't get mixed up with regular patients. Like sitting in a waiting room. If you were going to have a child and you were going to have a meeting with a nurse then you were the only one allowed in, not even your husband/boyfriend was allowed to accompany you.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#32

Post by TheCowboy »

weego wrote: post #18
sergiosgc wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Sweden decided for no lock-downs, we knew very little about the virus. It was effectively a jump into the unknown. Even if the decision proves beneficial, it was an error, in the knowledge context of March 2020.

Assuming that in any give situation, the only correct decision in the absence of any knowledge is the most conservative one. Which this would disprove and thus the argument is provably false.

Except that being wrong about how bad a virus is can be catastrophic, especially when nearly every nation was woefully underprepared. You can easily do math to demonstrate how small changes in the variables of a virus can lead to more dire outcomes.

What if China had taken the most conservative policy in response to the appearance of covid-19? Maybe we would have been spared the turmoil and disruption of this pandemic. You're way too confident declaring this as "provably false".

Hopefully our knowledge is greater and our preparedness will be better such that we don't have to always take such an aggressive policy position when faced with a novel virus.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#33

Post by wk_end »

alecst wrote: post #22
dance-me wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to quote that, you should add the directly relevant information from the other side: * "But that death rate is lower than the average for the European Union as a whole (1,684), and well below those of France, Spain, Italy and the UK" * Dr Bhatt concedes "it worked for Sweden" * Dr Bhatt is "one of the team at Imperial College who pushed the UK's lockdown strategy" That last detail is important. Of cou…

Edit: I am wrong. The population density of the Stockholm urban area is 4200 (2019), not 400 as I originally said. That number is for the county, not the municipal area. Leaving the rest of the comment so others can learn. Clearly the population density of Stockholm, which holds about 10% of the Swedish population, is not the relevant factor. > Of course he has to say it couldn't have worked in the UK. I'm guessing h…

That’s the population density of Stockholm county. The population density of the city of Stockholm is 5200 per square km.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#34

Post by spookthesunset »

tpmx wrote: post #30
warning26 wrote: post #17

What I find particularly interesting is that Sweden wasn't the only country that did this -- Brazil also did a no-lockdown strategy, and it was basically a disaster there. Evidently, there must have been some other factors at play besides the boolean of lockdown true/false. Better healthcare, maybe?

I'm Swedish. I think the most important difference is that ~50% of the population here thought the government was being incompetent/paralyzed and then performed a voluntary lockdown, much harsher than the government-mandated restrictions. Since lots of those people who disagreed with the government (in)actions work as "knowledge workers", it was also relatively easy to make the switch to work from home, and they did,…

That doesn’t prove the people doing these voluntary lockdowns had any different of an outcome than if they did nothing at all.

Way to many people just blindly assume these interventions worked. The fact is we have zero clue if they did anything or the outcomes experienced by different regions was a result of a bunch of stuff that is completely out of our control.

If I was gonna bet, my money would be on the lockdowns not doing anything. The virus did what it did no matter how hard humans tried to control it. We had as little control over covid as we have control over other natural disasters like tornadoes and hurricanes.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#35

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

Telegraph has an anti-lockdown agenda to push in the UK; it is not an impartial source here.

In the UK the praise for the "Sweden model" comes particularly from the conservative-aligned pro-business anti-lockdown lobby; who are producing PR for their proposition that "lockdowns do more (economic) harm than they do (public health) good". Right or wrong, it's certainly not impartial reporting on a foreign country, it's selling the idea that this should be policy at home.

If you're reading such an article from a UK publication and you're not in the UK, then you are not the target of this marketing exercise. You are informational Bycatch.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#36

Post by [deleted] »

dragonwriter wrote: post #21
whiddershins wrote: post #9

While many people might point out that Sweden did in fact have more deaths, the verdict on that is still out. They are getting far fewer cases and deaths than many other areas now, and have been for many weeks. Couple that with the not-lost social interactions and economy etc, and the fact that this was always (more or less) every country’s pandemic plan before we changed our mind for covid, and it becomes a troublin…

> While many people might point out that Sweden did in fact have more deaths, the verdict on that is still out Other people would point out that Sweden experienced economic effects and other indicia of behavioral changes roughly equivalent to places that notionally, at least, had lockdowns.

[deleted]

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#37

Post by dghughes »

I know a lot of right-wing types like to point to Sweden as an example. But I'd argue whether what they did was right or wrong the Swedish population was better prepared. Compared to the USA the Swedish socialized medical system would mean that most of their citizens probably started off healthier.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#38

Post by alecst »

wk_end wrote: post #33
alecst wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: I am wrong. The population density of the Stockholm urban area is 4200 (2019), not 400 as I originally said. That number is for the county, not the municipal area. Leaving the rest of the comment so others can learn. Clearly the population density of Stockholm, which holds about 10% of the Swedish population, is not the relevant factor. > Of course he has to say it couldn't have worked in the UK. I'm guessing h…

That’s the population density of Stockholm county. The population density of the city of Stockholm is 5200 per square km.

You are right. I am wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_urban_area

I find ~4200 on Wikipedia but your point stands.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#39

Post by Hamuko »

warning26 wrote: post #17

What I find particularly interesting is that Sweden wasn't the only country that did this -- Brazil also did a no-lockdown strategy, and it was basically a disaster there. Evidently, there must have been some other factors at play besides the boolean of lockdown true/false. Better healthcare, maybe?

What's the definition of "lockdown" anyways? Because I can't name that many COVID-19 restrictions that have been enacted in Finland.
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