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The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#21

Post by dragonwriter »

whiddershins wrote: post #9

While many people might point out that Sweden did in fact have more deaths, the verdict on that is still out. They are getting far fewer cases and deaths than many other areas now, and have been for many weeks. Couple that with the not-lost social interactions and economy etc, and the fact that this was always (more or less) every country’s pandemic plan before we changed our mind for covid, and it becomes a troublin…

> While many people might point out that Sweden did in fact have more deaths, the verdict on that is still out

Other people would point out that Sweden experienced economic effects and other indicia of behavioral changes roughly equivalent to places that notionally, at least, had lockdowns.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#22

Post by alecst »

dance-me wrote: post #11
nickloewen wrote: post #3

The article provides evidence to support the claim made in the headline, but there are important caveats included at the end: > The death rate was between three and four times that of Denmark, and nearly 10 times those of Finland and Norway - suggesting Swedes died that didn’t need to. > And Dr Bhatt does not think another, non-Nordic country such as Britain could have copied Sweden’s policies and got the same result…

If you're going to quote that, you should add the directly relevant information from the other side: * "But that death rate is lower than the average for the European Union as a whole (1,684), and well below those of France, Spain, Italy and the UK" * Dr Bhatt concedes "it worked for Sweden" * Dr Bhatt is "one of the team at Imperial College who pushed the UK's lockdown strategy" That last detail is important. Of cou…

Edit: I am wrong. The population density of the Stockholm urban area is 4200 (2019), not 400 as I originally said. That number is for the county, not the municipal area. Leaving the rest of the comment so others can learn. Clearly the population density of Stockholm, which holds about 10% of the Swedish population, is not the relevant factor.

> Of course he has to say it couldn't have worked in the UK.

I'm guessing he didn't say it because he didn't think it was true.

In Stockholm there are ~400 people per square km.

In Milan there are 2000, in Madrid there are 5400, in London there are 5700, and in Paris there are 20,000. This detail alone -- ignoring other cultural and demographic differences between northern and southern Europe -- could be enough on its own to soften the blow.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#23

Post by slim »

warning26 wrote: post #17

What I find particularly interesting is that Sweden wasn't the only country that did this -- Brazil also did a no-lockdown strategy, and it was basically a disaster there. Evidently, there must have been some other factors at play besides the boolean of lockdown true/false. Better healthcare, maybe?

Some people have better resistance to the virus. Maybe there's more of them in sweden

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#24

Post by redisman »

nradov wrote: post #16
nickloewen wrote: post #3

The article provides evidence to support the claim made in the headline, but there are important caveats included at the end: > The death rate was between three and four times that of Denmark, and nearly 10 times those of Finland and Norway - suggesting Swedes died that didn’t need to. > And Dr Bhatt does not think another, non-Nordic country such as Britain could have copied Sweden’s policies and got the same result…

Population density is meaningless for countries as a whole. Most of Sweden is wilderness where hardly anyone lives. Swedes mostly live in cities, just like Brits.

Swedes mostly live in low population density cities

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#25

Post by marderfarker2 »

warning26 wrote: post #17

What I find particularly interesting is that Sweden wasn't the only country that did this -- Brazil also did a no-lockdown strategy, and it was basically a disaster there. Evidently, there must have been some other factors at play besides the boolean of lockdown true/false. Better healthcare, maybe?

China did the opposite by sealing everything up in the beginning, and now everything has gone back to normal for them bar international travel.

Probably it’s down to developed countries having a well-defined response protocol AND its citizen sticking to it.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#26

Post by UncleOxidant »

adevx wrote: post #19

Add to this that babies born during lockdown have found to have a significant lower IQ. “It’s not subtle by any stretch,” said Deoni. “You don’t typically see things like that, outside of major cognitive disorders.” I think we vastly underestimate the severe long-term effects of lockdowns. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/children-born-...

Your link doesn't seem to go anywhere.

Also, how accurate are IQ tests on 1 year old and younger babies?

I'm not sure why IQs would be lower (if indeed this is the case) - parents are still around. In fact parents have been more often around during the pandemic given the increase in work from home policies.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#27

Post by azinman2 »

warning26 wrote: post #17

What I find particularly interesting is that Sweden wasn't the only country that did this -- Brazil also did a no-lockdown strategy, and it was basically a disaster there. Evidently, there must have been some other factors at play besides the boolean of lockdown true/false. Better healthcare, maybe?

The article talks about this at the end. They have very low population density, a tiny population to start with, and most people live alone. Compared to their immediate neighbors with similar densities and culture, they did far worse in deaths.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#28

Post by dmingod666 »

adevx wrote: post #19

Add to this that babies born during lockdown have found to have a significant lower IQ. “It’s not subtle by any stretch,” said Deoni. “You don’t typically see things like that, outside of major cognitive disorders.” I think we vastly underestimate the severe long-term effects of lockdowns. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/children-born-...

How do you measure baby IQ?

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#29

Post by spookthesunset »

warning26 wrote: post #17

What I find particularly interesting is that Sweden wasn't the only country that did this -- Brazil also did a no-lockdown strategy, and it was basically a disaster there. Evidently, there must have been some other factors at play besides the boolean of lockdown true/false. Better healthcare, maybe?

See but since there was no actual randomized test the fact that Brazil did a no-lockdown strategy (which I guess some say is false)… it could have been just as big of a disaster even with a lockdown.

There is basically no real way to prove that lockdowns did a single thing. The fact so many countries were so willing to jump onto a completely unproven non pharmaceutical intervention that has massive negative side effects is pretty scary.

The fact so many people get hot and bothered by this and just assume that lockdowns worked at all… it’s quite disturbing.

Re: The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental health, healthier economy

#30

Post by tpmx »

warning26 wrote: post #17

What I find particularly interesting is that Sweden wasn't the only country that did this -- Brazil also did a no-lockdown strategy, and it was basically a disaster there. Evidently, there must have been some other factors at play besides the boolean of lockdown true/false. Better healthcare, maybe?

I'm Swedish.

I think the most important difference is that ~50% of the population here thought the government was being incompetent/paralyzed and then performed a voluntary lockdown, much harsher than the government-mandated restrictions.

Since lots of those people who disagreed with the government (in)actions work as "knowledge workers", it was also relatively easy to make the switch to work from home, and they did, along with pretty much everone who was able to do WFH.

Possibly related: the current social democrat prime minister Stefan Löfven made a surprise announcement today that he'll be stepping down in November, a mere ten months before the next election.

I think it's natural that it would play out differently in Brazil - so many differences in the structure of the work force, access to information, English language skills, personal economic reserves, etc etc.

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