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Benefits of Not Using an IDE

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Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#351

Post by orwin »

wokwokwok wrote: post #348
falcolas wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, it would make you a better swimmer - it will help you build up strength, stamina, and technique. An excellent choice in analogies.

...this is actually a great analogy. Yes, it does; but when you're trying to set a record swimming the English Channel, or escaping from a sinking ship you'd be an idiot to do it deliberately weighing yourself down with weights. I suppose there's something to be said for both ways of doing things ultimately, depending on what situation you're in, and what your goal is. ...but unconditionally advising people to swim w…

So the best case is learning without an IDE, and working with one?

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#352

Post by orwin »

oldsecondhand wrote: post #170
drunkpotato wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best developers I've found are the ones who know how to work without an IDE, even if their preference is to use one. Contrastingly, the worst, slowest developers I've worked with rely on their IDE without understanding what it's doing for them, and are helpless in new/unsupported situations. They also, 100% of the time, screw up their git repositories on a regular basis, and need someone who knows what they're do…

But you don't use git to write your code. Code autocompletion and cross referencing are pretty big productivity boosters that won't prevent you from learning command line git. Also I bet you don't use the command line for diffing files. Also the problems is that most IDEs half ass their git client. When I was using Sourcetree, I rarely ever felt the need to go to the command line.

For my sibling using `git diff`, can i introduce you to tig[0]? I think it is inferior to magit, but you can install and test it with `apt install tig` and then `tig` in a git directory.

[0] http://jonas.github.io/tig/

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#353

Post by orwin »

deltasixeight wrote: post #261
dimgl wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even sure what to make of this. No sane developer I know will work without an IDE, much less prefer not using an IDE. Sure, we can probably write code without an IDE but in what way does that mean I'm a better developer? I feel myself cringing whenever I hear that a developer is going to reach for TextEdit or Notepad++ to write code.

Those editors aren't really part of the conversation anymore. I would say they were maybe over 12 years ago. Not so nowadays. People are referring to SublimeText, Vim, Emacs, VSCode as Programming Text editors. VSCode is currently the most popular with vim as purist second and Emacs for "elite" hackers.

I'm really just asking, do you think VSCode is a text editor? I used to put it in the same categories as IDE (and thought that it was really better than Netbeans and Eclipse)

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#354

Post by orwin »

neonbones wrote: post #309
beebeepka wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had some 20 year olds with such attitude. Me: you realise always doing things the hard way does not improve your output, right? Young jedi: nah, it's fine. GUI only slows me down, also Perl is the best Me: alright then

Well, this is my friends and me in my early 20s. The only true way is to use vim/emacs, CLI tools for everything. GUI is for losers. And the only TRUE and SERIOUS languages for COOL KIDS are C++, Haskell, and Perl. If you don't use them, you are code monkey. And here I am, doing everything in typescript for my job, use VSCode and Webstorm, in love with GitKraken. What a shame. I'm not a cool kid anymore.

Apparently, VSCode is considered a text Editor. And i mean, if you played with Netbeans and Eclispe, and are now working with VSCode, this whole thread would seems a bit weird to you.

The main difference i see between Text editor and IDEs: with text editors you need to add your own configuration and tooling, and this can takes time, while with IDE everything is already in and you just need to learn the quirks.

But right now, i'm working to integrate programs with OCS pods and weird network architecture (we can only interrogate some APIs from the Openshift cluster as a security mesure), and my collegues who only ever worked with IDEs have a development cycle that look like this:

Write code => push => build new image=> deploy pod with new image => get the input and correct mistakes => repeat

I just work withing the pod (i use vim because its everywhere, but i could build the pod with VSCode inside, it is light enough).

So i'll say this: imho if you're in for a short-term contract, learn to use you employer IDE. If you think you'll stay a long time AND you like to have tailor-made tools for you, you can consider a text editor. Whichever choice you make, always learn a new language with the least tooling help you can get (in Eclipse you can deactivate stuff), and learn ed or Vim if you might go DevOps in the future.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#355

Post by hsn915 »

fartcannon wrote: post #40

In Linux, it often feels like the whole OS is the IDE. In the same shell, you can edit source files, compile, debug, execute, rename, search, create and execute scripts to do literally anything with any language, use git, surf the web, update, reboot, launch a game, etc, etc. An IDE on top of that always felt restricting to me. Like why limit yourself? But maybe that's a windows/Mac thing.

The whole system is the IDE in the sense that it's meant to be an "integrated development environment".

But that's not really a good thing: you only have one system, therefore only one environment.

For example:

How do you use multiple versions of the same library for different project? It's not an easy thing to do if you rely on the system paths for libraries.

It's much better if libraries are just a thing you install to the current project rather than being a system wide thing.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#356

Post by nicoburns »

dntrkv wrote: post #315
nicoburns wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can actually configure chrome to be able to edit your local files and save changes directly. Although admittedly it was a bit unreliable when I tried it.

Yeah but then you're editing code in, what is basically, notepad. Good luck finding the file you need to edit from the Chrome dev console. Having the ability to do everything from your IDE allows you to leverage all of the tooling built into that IDE.

It's a fair sight better than notepad. You get syntax highlighting, Ctrl/Cmd-P to fuzzy search for files to open, and even things like multiple cursors. But you're right that it's not quite the same experience as a full editor. You won't get linting, type checking or autocomplete.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#357

Post by newbamboo »

MonkeyClub wrote: post #330
newbamboo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Men have become the tools of their tools. Money is not required to buy one necessity of the soul. Most of the luxuries and many of the so-called comforts of life are not only not indispensable, but positive hindrances to the elevation of mankind.” Henry David Thoreau One day the IDE will do most of the coding. Users will just click “ok” and spend most of their time asking IT to reboot and reinstall things until it a…

This isn't an actual verbatim Thoreau quote, it's rather a mishmash of disparate sentences from Walden,[0] so perhaps the use of the quotes is mistaken. The sentences do carry a general spirit, however, which is very nice and pleasing, until you're reminded that Thoreau's rugged existence in nature was supported by his mum cooking him dinner. I would instead offer the following sentence from Walden as a better encaps…

The internet is a tool that I’ve again become tool of, it seems. The fuller context of the quote I was searching for I think still applies as much to IDEs as emacs. Lisp is arguably a more solid and earthly foundation.

But lo! men have become the tools of their tools. The man who independently plucked the fruits when he was hungry is become a farmer; and he who stood under a tree for shelter, a housekeeper. We now no longer camp as for a night, but have settled down on earth and forgotten heaven. We have adopted Christianity merely as an improved method of agri-culture. We have built for this world a family mansion, and for the next a family tomb. The best works of art are the expression of man’s struggle to free himself from this condition, but the effect of our art is merely to make this low state comfortable and that higher state to be forgotten. There is actually no place in this village for a work of fine art, if any had come down to us, to stand, for our lives, our houses and streets, furnish no proper pedestal for it. There is not a nail to hang a picture on, nor a shelf to receive the bust of a hero or a saint. When I consider how our houses are built and paid for, or not paid for, and their internal economy managed and sustained, I wonder that the floor does not give way under the visitor while he is admiring the gewgaws upon the mantel-piece, and let him through into the cellar, to some solid and honest though earthy foundation.”

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#359

Post by drdebug »

wokwokwok wrote: post #34

Listen, long story short: just say no to nonsense like this. Given the choice of a) tooling, or b) no tooling, you’re not being smart, cool or clever by choosing b. Obviously, what tools you pick are important and heavy IDEs like IntelliJ are a trade off between speed and functionality, and yeah, more nimble tools do exist, and it’s definitely worth trying different development tools to see what makes you most produc…

It seems to really depend on the type of work that you are doing. If you write high level code using many external libraries in a language like Java, using an IDE can be a time saver. If you are write low level C code, I found that using an IDE does not seem to be that helpful. But that's just my 2c.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#360

Post by bdcravens »

smw wrote: post #349
bdcravens wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also depends on the language. I don't think I'd consider working in a .NET project with an IDE, but it's overkill for Ruby or Javascript projects.

Rubymine can, with one click, make an ER diagram of your ActiveRecord model -- from the code, not the db schema. That pays for itself right there, especially if you're learning someone else's code base. Try it for a day, you'll never go back.

I've used it before. I found it valuable, but there were a number of reasons I went back to a smart editor instead. I do use Jet Brain's DataGrip, so I'm a big fan of their tools overall.
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