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Noted study in psychology fails to replicate, crumbles with evidence of fraud

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Re: Noted study in psychology fails to replicate, crumbles with evidence of fraud

#41
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to draw a line between "not replicable" and fraudulent. This is about the latter. This is the kind of corruption that spreads. It's a very bad thing. It is related to the former problem of "not replicable," which is about application of the "scientific method." On this, my worldview has evolved a lot over the last decade. I think we've been applying overly Popperian methods, and formalisations of the…

If the results are not replicable, how can they be actionable?

Think about the replication crisis as actually a generalization crisis. The study said what it said for the exact parameters given. The question is what were all the parameters and which ones are the final result actually sensitive to?

It’s actionable by trying it in a new circumstance (set of parameters) and observing whether it fails - over and over. Failure doesn’t mean the claim is wrong/untrue, it means you’ve changed a parameter that happens to be important: now find it!

Re: Noted study in psychology fails to replicate, crumbles with evidence of fraud

#42

You don't even need the graphs, miles driven per year is a sum. Sums converge to gaussians yet here the deviation was half of mean which means they used a uniform variable generator for miles.

Interesting point. So the original paper (2012) didn't give a table or anything, but said: "Customers who signed at the beginning on average revealed higher use (M = 26,098.4, SD = 12,253.4) than those who signed at the end [M = 23,670.6, SD = 12,621.4; F(1, 13,485) = 128.63, P Was M = 26,098.4, SD = 12,253.4 enough to infer a uniform distribution?

Re: Noted study in psychology fails to replicate, crumbles with evidence of fraud

#43

I have several books of Ariely. I enjoy reading psychology, but I stopped reading pop psychology books and go for academic books or textbooks or individual articles. The amount of times I read about spectacular counter-intuitive study that "changes everything" and later find out it was fraudulent or failed to replicate makes me really doubt all of my knowledge I have from reading about psychology. Reproducibility cri…

It is wrong to believe just because a result cannot be replicated the original result is wrong or fraudulent. It can be totally normal and is to be expected that a replication study fails to yield the same result just out of chance etc.

Sometimes things are even more complicated than you already believe them to be. And it may take more than just a replication study to say a study is wrong or fraudulent.

Re: Noted study in psychology fails to replicate, crumbles with evidence of fraud

#44
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the results are not replicable, how can they be actionable?

Think about the replication crisis as actually a generalization crisis. The study said what it said for the exact parameters given. The question is what were all the parameters and which ones are the final result actually sensitive to? It’s actionable by trying it in a new circumstance (set of parameters) and observing whether it fails - over and over. Failure doesn’t mean the claim is wrong/untrue, it means you’ve c…

Yes. Find it. And when you do, you'll have something reproducible. The purpose of science is to advance the species. Given this, when that happens, this other thing(s) occur (or occur with a certain frequency)

I agree that this is a generalization problem. I just don't believe that this particular way of describing it is helpful. If you'll allow me an apocryphal example, when Newton saw the apple fall, if he had generalized to "all things from apple trees fall at the same rate", he would have been correct for a while, then ludicrously incorrect once the leaves started blowing off in Autumn. If at that point he had tried to figure out exactly what kind of tree produces this gravity thing, or which parts of trees, we wouldn't be any further along than we were before.

Generalizations work along multiple axes. With some degree of imprecision, every experiment can be a success (or failure). This is why we have the scientific method in the first place.

Now, perhaps you're making the argument that this is somehow, for lack of a better term, half-science. It's not right, but it's not wrong either. It's truthy. The logical follow-up would be: ok, where is the second half? In this and many other cases there is no second half. Papers were published, people received awards, wrote books, became famous, and lots of other folks used their work. So even if somehow this is better than nothing, in practice I'm not seeing it.

Re: Noted study in psychology fails to replicate, crumbles with evidence of fraud

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Publishing negative results is important to solving this issue.

I agree. The grad students agree. Now how do you convince a group obsessed with career advancement and holding all of the cards (PIs) to agree?

Give groups larger grants for publishing negative results too? More money seems to be workable enough in the rest of the economy. Obviously it would be best if those at the top make the change and let it cascade down. But any private source of funds could also experiment with changing the grant model.

Re: Noted study in psychology fails to replicate, crumbles with evidence of fraud

#46
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to draw a line between "not replicable" and fraudulent. This is about the latter. This is the kind of corruption that spreads. It's a very bad thing. It is related to the former problem of "not replicable," which is about application of the "scientific method." On this, my worldview has evolved a lot over the last decade. I think we've been applying overly Popperian methods, and formalisations of the…

If the results are not replicable, how can they be actionable?

Let me continue the example...

We found that students participating in the "2hr active recess program" have meaningfully better health outcomes, psychological health outcomes, and better grades. It was tested faithfully in 25 schools over 10 years.

It expands to other places. Different countries. Different decades. Different people run it in different ways. The kids are different. In some cases, the kids are already so active that the extra activity is detrimental. In some places, it's really hot. Kids tend to read, or do more organized indoor activities.

Basically, the world is not a laboratory. You're not predicting the trajectory of a projectile, where unknowables can be quantified as a function. It's all 3 body problems all the time.

Yet, we as humans do manage to make sense of the world. We run schools, companies. We learn more about how to do those things. Formal studies are an important part of learning about how to do those things. Scientific mindset and methodologies are useful to this. It's a lot better than just philosophizing the whole thing. The type of knowledge we gain, OTOH, isn't like F=MA. It never will be.

The value of the above study does relate/imply to it containing knowledge. It's a partial knowledge of a general problem. It is not complete knowledge of a particular problem, like you would get in a lab. Neither lab experiments or wild studies tend to replicate in one another's world.

No matter how good the study, how many times it replicated, or how well it worked throughout the 80s and 90s... there's no guarantee that your program is working well or a guaranteed explanation for why it isn't.

Re: Noted study in psychology fails to replicate, crumbles with evidence of fraud

#47

You don't even need the graphs, miles driven per year is a sum. Sums converge to gaussians yet here the deviation was half of mean which means they used a uniform variable generator for miles.

> yet here the deviation was half of mean which means they used a uniform variable

What am I missing? The mean of a normal distribution can be any value. A normal with mean 2 and deviation 1 has deviation equal to half of the mean.

Is this related to the fact that miles driven can't be negative (unlike a sample from a genuine normal)?

Re: Noted study in psychology fails to replicate, crumbles with evidence of fraud

#48
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the results are not replicable, how can they be actionable?

Think about the replication crisis as actually a generalization crisis. The study said what it said for the exact parameters given. The question is what were all the parameters and which ones are the final result actually sensitive to? It’s actionable by trying it in a new circumstance (set of parameters) and observing whether it fails - over and over. Failure doesn’t mean the claim is wrong/untrue, it means you’ve c…

I disagree.

You're not going to find the parameter which makes a high school nutrition program deterministic. It shouldn't be the goal.

Re: Noted study in psychology fails to replicate, crumbles with evidence of fraud

#49
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the results are not replicable, how can they be actionable?

Think about the replication crisis as actually a generalization crisis. The study said what it said for the exact parameters given. The question is what were all the parameters and which ones are the final result actually sensitive to? It’s actionable by trying it in a new circumstance (set of parameters) and observing whether it fails - over and over. Failure doesn’t mean the claim is wrong/untrue, it means you’ve c…

Generalizing further, it touches on the Demarcation Problem. What is the difference between scientific hypothesis revision and pseudoscientific goalpost moving?

Surely there is one, but it's maddeningly hard to pin down. Especially when the experiments are hard to perform and control properly, which applies both to psychology and astronomy.

Re: Noted study in psychology fails to replicate, crumbles with evidence of fraud

#50

I have several books of Ariely. I enjoy reading psychology, but I stopped reading pop psychology books and go for academic books or textbooks or individual articles. The amount of times I read about spectacular counter-intuitive study that "changes everything" and later find out it was fraudulent or failed to replicate makes me really doubt all of my knowledge I have from reading about psychology. Reproducibility cri…

Another issue is books written by journalists blowing up ideas they find interesting from research and the pulling things out of their ass.

Look at emotional intelligence (EQ) as an example. One of the early books on the subject written by a journalist which was based on a shaky foundation and then added a bunch more sugar. It might as well be a self-help movement which could spawn coaches, authors courses and certifications.

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