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The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

economist.com

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Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#91

Post by imiric »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #48
switch007 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean capitalists’ addiction to profit. Double my wage, I’ll buy made in the UK/EU much more often.

We can double your wage, but you first need to buy made in EU and stop buying cheap crap you don’t actually need.

The issue is not so much with frivolous consumerism as it is with cheap crap flooding the market, taking over certain product categories altogether. If you're in the market for any kind of electronics, toys, small tools, etc., chances are your only option is to buy a variation of the same cheap mass produced crap with a different temporary or nonexistent brand and thousands of fake 5-star reviews. Even searching for name brands you run the risk of getting a counterfeit. The system is rigged to the point where quality, and thus more expensive, brands simply can't compete.

The change needs to start on the manufacturer and retailer side. Stop prioritizing cost savings from cheap Chinese factories and start building locally and in factories that prioritize quality and respect human labor and the environment. As a consumer I'd happily pay for that overhead if that option was available and was given a fair chance to compete.

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#92

Post by switch007 »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #48
switch007 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean capitalists’ addiction to profit. Double my wage, I’ll buy made in the UK/EU much more often.

We can double your wage, but you first need to buy made in EU and stop buying cheap crap you don’t actually need.

Ok we’re obviously making stupid black and white arguments. But it’s patently true in many companies there is plenty of profit to be reduced and redistributed as wages (also exec comp)

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#93

Post by switch007 »

lottin wrote: post #53
switch007 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean capitalists’ addiction to profit. Double my wage, I’ll buy made in the UK/EU much more often.

If wages doubled in the UK/EU everything made in the UK/EU would instantly also become more expensive.

If wages were halved would everything instantly halve in price?

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#94

Post by notacoward »

bilvar wrote: post #77
eurasiantiger wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if we are going to play the game where covert research implicates overt funding that specifically hinges on the funds not being used on such covert research (gain-of-function studies), we will definitely be barking up the wrong tree.

If there was no foul play why the fuss to cover it up then?

That's a circular argument. You're using the assumption of foul play to characterize the response as a cover-up, and the putative existence of a cover-up as evidence of foul play. Be better.

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#96

Post by notacoward »

asplake wrote: post #47
padiyar83 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's a conspiracy. Motivations there, however misplaced they may be, are quite clear.

Groups of people deliberately creating and spreading disinformation is by any sensible definition a conspiracy

Do you also believe that correlation implies causation? Because it's practically the same thing. A conspiracy requires that people conspire, i.e. coordinate. Correlated action is entirely possible without conspiracy, as is evident during any traffic jam or holiday shopping rush.

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#97

Post by harshreality »

zozbot234 wrote: post #84
harshreality wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was an intentional release, obviously that's a completely different class of problem. That would be an act of war against the rest of the world, using a weapon of mass destruction, in addition to the collateral suffering of China's own population. Only very fringe groups are suggesting this was intentionally leaked to begin with. However, there's still the problem of Wuhan air travel lockdown. What possible rea…

Lab leak does not imply "man made" at all. Chinese virology labs are quite far from safe and stuff leaks out all the time. There's a whole lot of circumstantial evidence that this virus came from a bat to begin with and was not created in the lab.

I don't know what you mean by "man made" or "created". The origin of the vast majority of the genome of SARS-CoV-2 was a bat virus. If that makes it automatically natural in your view, you're correct by definition, but only because your definition of natural includes most modifications that could have been done in a lab.

Directed evolution in a lab (e.g. serial passage in humanized mice, or even captive bats) would be one thing. Would you consider that "man made" or "created", or is it natural?

Small genome sequence edits for experimental purposes would be another type of modification. Would you consider that "man made" or "created", or still natural?

Full genetic synthesis base pair by base pair is more difficult (longer sequences become much more difficult), but as I understand it is technologically possible... barely. If someone takes the genome from a natural virus genome sequence and synthesizes it that way in a lab, possibly with minor edits, would that be "man-made" or "created", or still natural?

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#98

Post by notacoward »

zpeti wrote: post #6
daavidhauser wrote: post #4

why does the world need a proper investigation into that? Sometimes it seems to me that it’s just because we want someone to blame. Not because it would actually help anyone.

If there aren’t ever any consequences to making huge mistakes that kill millions of people, what are the incentives in the future to not do it again? The CCP knowingly hid information about infections. This whole thing could have been contained in China with the right information at the right time. If it was a lab accident that could be avoided in the future too with better protocols. I’m baffled that after millions…

The problem is that even with an investigation there will be no consequences. For one thing, too much evidence has already been lost. Whether that is deliberate or due to mere passage of time doesn't matter; either way, we'll barely be more certain after an investigation than before. For another, even if we were absolutely certain, geopolitical concerns would preclude any real repercussions. Again, whether that's realpolitik or corruption/collusion doesn't matter; either way, anyone who does get punished will surely be a scapegoat while the real culprits walk free.

The only thing an investigation at this point will do is waste time and money and divert experts from more useful tasks (like finding the next potentially catastrophic pathogen). I believe that demands for one should be considered purely performative. The only thing they achieve is to declare allegiance to one group and drum up discrimination against another.

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#99

Post by pvaldes »

dannyw wrote: post #24
suzzer99 wrote: post #7

Determining how Covid started would be extremely important imo if there was a chance its release was intentional. But every virologist take I've read suggests that the virus does not look man-made. Nor would it seem that covid's effects and behavior could have possibly been known to any usable degree without the worldwide experiment that we've all been part of the last year and a half. And finally it's really hard to…

If China accidentally released this then the world deserves to know what happened so all labs in the world can learn from it.

> If China accidentally released this then the world deserves to know what happened

"China" didn't accidentally released anything, and is easy to see why. The group of scientists that were working in Wuhan (some Chinese, other not) don't represent the government or the entire country. How they could?

Would be so absurd as to claim that "US" or "Italy" released accidentally covid-19 because a few scientists from US or Italy worked in the same project. The reason to use the words in this way and to use the mass media to fix this wrong idea in the people is 100% political and should be a red flag about the real purpose of this (gain leverage with post-truth, instead to find the truth).

The problem is that post-truth could mes enough to bury the truth forever, and all actors are interested into saving face and sneaking their own version.

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#100

Post by read_if_gay_ »

luckylion wrote: post #76
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, we could take action to help prevent another Covid from happening. It’s really not that hard to see how it could be useful to know about the origins of Covid. Really tired of people making it about racism (or whatever) against China. And I say that as a Chinese person.

How would we make sure another Covid couldn't happen if we knew that this one stems from a lab and was intentionally released? Do we ban the creation and release of highly contagious bio-weapons? We already have, haven't we? Do we start a nuclear war to make sure China is no more and therefore they can't do it again (but anyone else could)? I'm not suggesting there's no use in finding out how it came to be, but unles…

> How would we make sure another Covid couldn't happen

I don't know, I'm not an expert. But clearly, having more information is strictly better than not having it.

So let me flip the question around and ask why should we not investigate?

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