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Police helicopter's 100mph chase with 'super sophisticated' drone near Tucson

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Re: Police helicopter's 100mph chase with 'super sophisticated' drone near Tucson

#121
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FPV just means that the drone has a camera with a first person view and doesn't rely on the user being able to see the drone to fly it. Yes, it can be easily done for under $1k. This is not $1k for the drone, just for making whatever drone FPV capable, if that's what you were misunderstanding.

If you build a basic quadcopter yourself you can even include everything for $1000. This would buy you a fun hobbyist FPV rig, although it wouldn't have the range, speed, or endurance of the drone in the article. For that you'd have to pay more, but even then we're talking "serious hobbyist" money, not "nation-state" money.

Maybe some nation states are buying closeup footage of military bases and a whole market has sprung up, including local pros to service that demand.

Re: Police helicopter's 100mph chase with 'super sophisticated' drone near Tucson

#122

> I would have to imagine it was larger than a quadcopter, and I guarantee you it was nothing like a quadcopter from how long it was up - it has to be satellite-driven because there’s no line-of-sight, there’s no cell phone coverage that could have dealt with that, so it has to be satellite-driven, which is pretty freakin’ sophisticated.” So, setting aside this claim that there’s no line of sight, my bet is these guy…

Saw some guys racing drones like the first video in a local park. Every bit as fast and maneuverable, but they had them going through 6 ft gates on a course roughly the size of a football field. I assume they're not really human-controlled because I could barely track where the drone was, let alone give it precise controls for how to pass through the gate. Went home and told my wife "If we ever get into a war, humani…

Usually they’re human controlled with an FPV camera setup. Lots of stuff on YouTube to check out related to it if you’re curious. The camera and live video feed to goggles greatly increases what you can do with the drone

Re: Police helicopter's 100mph chase with 'super sophisticated' drone near Tucson

#123
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely, but they probably could for under $10k. The expensive part is the long-distance high-bandwidth radio system. The aircraft itself is trivially easy, assuming it's a liquid-fueled fixed-wing craft. You'll notice I used the word "basic" above to imply a starter or hobbyist capability.

I would think that most people with $10k+ of drone up there, aren't risking it physically or legally by playing with helicopters? Someone playing with tech that someone else is paying for though?

Don't underestimate the scale of wealth, $10k for a few moments of joy/adrenaline is far from unheard of for those with the means. If you have others, or can reproduce that piece of equipment with mere currency and you're sitting on a mountain of it.. why not?

Re: Police helicopter's 100mph chase with 'super sophisticated' drone near Tucson

#124
post #19

Somewhat off topic, what I find curious is that gangs have not yet started really making use of drones. I've heard of them being used to drop drugs and phones into prisons, but not much else. Some of the higher end hobby drones can fly just as high as general aviation aircraft and really fast and carry a lot of weight. Or perhaps I have missed the stories?

All the "drone delivery" startups and big co projects have outright failed or been nothing more than PR. There might be something about this that is a lot more difficult than can be seen prima facie, starting probably with the flight time of battery powered drones..

Would you want a lawnmower flying over your head?

The biggest problem is that drones are effectively flying lawnmowers.

Re: Police helicopter's 100mph chase with 'super sophisticated' drone near Tucson

#125
post #82

"There's no line of sight...it must be satellite controlled." Oh FFS. There's a lot of real estate on the ground where an operator could have been sitting and flying the thing with a high-powered FPV rig. FPV systems don't require satellites, and you can put a basic one together for less than $1000.

> the drone... proceeded northwest at high speed and climbing, with the helo and another LE helo in trail. The copter began to climb and flew out of the TUS area about 50 miles to the northwest of town into the middle of nowhere desert out by the mine west of KAVQ. It was last seen climbing through 14,000’ and into the undercast, where it disappeared. > the mystery craft was essentially playing with them by repeatedl…

To my memory; these things have been repeatedly popping up in the southern US; Arizona and Texas.

Maybe not for under $1k. But under any price? Is it physically possible? Yes.

We're not talking about a hobbyist guy in his garage here. We're talking about either US Military accidentally caught in a game of cat and mouse with local law enforcement, or more likely: drug cartels.

Both organizations operate heavily in the southwestern US, clandestinely without the need or desire to inform local law enforcement of their operations, and have practically unlimited budgets to accomplish their goals.

The real goal of a press release like this is to drum up a little FUD to take up to the governor and secure more funding, maybe even get your local precinct another helicopter, a cool drone, or a task force. And hell, maybe that's what they legitimately need here.

Re: Police helicopter's 100mph chase with 'super sophisticated' drone near Tucson

#126

> I would have to imagine it was larger than a quadcopter, and I guarantee you it was nothing like a quadcopter from how long it was up - it has to be satellite-driven because there’s no line-of-sight, there’s no cell phone coverage that could have dealt with that, so it has to be satellite-driven, which is pretty freakin’ sophisticated.” So, setting aside this claim that there’s no line of sight, my bet is these guy…

Saw some guys racing drones like the first video in a local park. Every bit as fast and maneuverable, but they had them going through 6 ft gates on a course roughly the size of a football field. I assume they're not really human-controlled because I could barely track where the drone was, let alone give it precise controls for how to pass through the gate. Went home and told my wife "If we ever get into a war, humani…

Turns out humans are actually really great at controlling ridiculously fast aircraft, the drone races are controlled by a person looking through a camera pointed forward on the drone. You can think of it like speedrunning an N64 game, finding the timing that lets you act instead of react.

But +1 humanity’s fucked, don’t Google Slaughterbots but maybe Google how to build an EMP, it’s easier than you think.

Re: Police helicopter's 100mph chase with 'super sophisticated' drone near Tucson

#127

"There's no line of sight...it must be satellite controlled." Oh FFS. There's a lot of real estate on the ground where an operator could have been sitting and flying the thing with a high-powered FPV rig. FPV systems don't require satellites, and you can put a basic one together for less than $1000.

Satellite? Obviously these police don't know what a repeater is.

TIL pilots don’t need to have a HAM license, huh.

Re: Police helicopter's 100mph chase with 'super sophisticated' drone near Tucson

#128
There's a lot of interesting material in the ATC recording.

- Helo pilots felt that it was intentionally staying nearby as it came very close on multiple occasions and did not seem to be trying to evade. They had visual contact most of the time but sometimes had a hard time tracking it against the city lights.

- Pilots initially describe it as a quadcopter but become skeptical of that due to the performance. No one ever gets a very good look at it to confirm.

- It's described early on as having a dim green light. A green light on the drone would be odd for a position light (they did seem to see it from multiple angles) but it seems like a lot of drones have nonstandard lighting.

- CBP pilots say that it is hard to see on night vision goggles and has a low heat signature. NVGs are not necessarily any better than human vision for discriminating dim lights in the city due to dynamic range, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything. The fact that they couldn't seem to pick it out on the thermal camera might mean something interesting if you looked at different drone types.

- The drone was first described as being at about 4k feet and climbing, to around 12k. That's pretty damn high for anything small.

- I don't hear the controller indicating that they had it on radar at any point, the altitudes are all estimates by the helo pilots.

- Pilots felt that it was not being controlled from the ground due to the large distance it covered, beyond line of sight from any one point. By my estimations it covered over 20 miles during the course of the recording. Given the terrain, that it passed over decently high ridges, I don't think it's a sure thing that it was not being controlled from the ground but it would be surprising.

- The CBP helicopter had a hard time getting it on their camera due to its rapid climbing (the cameras on these helicopters are usually under the nose and can't point up very much) and maneuvering that they seemed to feel was intentionally evasive of tracking. But it sounds like they may have successfully captured it on camera at times.

- The speed bit is confusing as no one ever tries to estimate it directly, I think because the drone was seldom flying straight. The article's suggestion that it did 105 knots in airspeed is not unjustified but also not a sure thing. It was definitely somewhere in the 100kts range though, I'd say, based on the difficulty the helicopters had in pursuing it.

- Both helicopters hit their endurance limit as the drone disappeared into clouds. One helicopter was able to stay airborne later and dwelled for a time hoping to see an operator or recovery team on the ground.

- The TPD pilot, speaking after the fact, seemed confident it was not the size of a light aircraft but appreciably smaller.

My analysis:

- Perhaps the most extraordinary thing, I think to the pilots as well, was the way it was maneuvering in such close range to the two helicopters. It suggested not just recklessness but also excellent situational awareness, the kind of thing I have a hard time believing an operator on the ground or by FPV could achieve. It suggests that the operator had help from a targeting system of some kind, whether based on open-source radar/TIS-B/ADS-B or radar on the drone. Visually tracking aircraft over a city at night is already notoriously difficult, even more so by camera, and this thing was coming within 100 feet abeam the helicopters and often flying between them.

- The altitude and speed demonstrated by the drone make me think it's fixed-wing rather than rotor, and fairly powerful. The endurance suggests fuel, not electric. Probably turbine powered.

- It's not at all surprising that a CBP and TPD aircraft were tracking it despite the proximity to the AFB. Most HN users seem to really overestimate the level of security at most military installations, there probably weren't any Air Force acft up at the time or even pilots readily available. Most of the time stuff like this happens at AF bases the response you get is force protection standing in their truck beds with binoculars, not some elaborate air defense operation. Law enforcement conducts far more patrol activity over cities than the military does, and getting an Air Force aircraft in the air would have taken long enough it probably wouldn't have mattered. These kinds of drone incidents are considered more of a civilian matter than a military one anyway as it's almost always just idiots messing around.

- The CBP aircraft at least and probably the TPD helicopter as well will have fairly sophisticated camera packages including thermal. I'm not totally clear on whether or not either of them got useful footage but you hear in the after-action call that the FAA is requesting all the video TPD has. The cameras on these helicopters are designed for tracking things on the ground, not moving fast in the air, so it's unsurprising that they had a hard time capturing it.

- It doesn't mean much that it doesn't seem to have been tracked on radar. Primary radar doesn't consistently detect light aircraft at those altitudes, and this thing was much smaller. In general the US does not have a capability to reliably detect non-cooperative small aircraft, it's just way too expensive to build that out.

Re: Police helicopter's 100mph chase with 'super sophisticated' drone near Tucson

#129

> stating that its high speed and impressive maneuver ability made it difficult to get a decent visual identification. The orbital velocity of Venus is 35.0 km/s so pretty quick, but no real manoeuvrability. The solar system it's within is 200 kilometers per second. But it's all relative so that's being silly. I guess this is it, a relatively slow looking planet looking like it's going fast from the observer who's mo…

I really enjoyed that totally tangential solar system link, thanks for that

But no way am I downloading that pdf

Re: Police helicopter's 100mph chase with 'super sophisticated' drone near Tucson

#130

Somewhat off topic, what I find curious is that gangs have not yet started really making use of drones. I've heard of them being used to drop drugs and phones into prisons, but not much else. Some of the higher end hobby drones can fly just as high as general aviation aircraft and really fast and carry a lot of weight. Or perhaps I have missed the stories?

I remember that one of the Colombian drug gangs tried building a submarine in the jungle for ferrying drugs under water. I'm sure they'll try other such things. Drones mean not losing a human who might tattle.

For those interested in learning more about narcobubmarines, I recommend H I Sutton. His original work [1] and his twitter stream [2] are very solid.

[1] http://www.hisutton.com/Largest-Narco-Submarines-Compared.ht...

[2] https://twitter.com/covertshores

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