Google’s ‘Project Hug’ paid out huge sums to keep game devs in the Play Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Google’s ‘Project Hug’ paid out huge sums to keep game devs in the Play Store

#131

Post by Revenant-15 » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

woofie11 wrote: post #25

mard wrote: post #18

In 2001, Microsoft "constituted unlawful monopolization" under Antitrust Act for bundling a web browser with their operating system. 20 years later, Apple and Google bundle not only their browsers, but whole irreplaceable app stores with no legal consequences. I don't know how the law sees it, but it's simply illogical from the common sense standpoint.

Marketshare. The law sees marketshare. * Google and Apple compete against each other, so there is no monopoly. * Microsoft had no effective competitors. You don't need a monopoly for antitrust, but it sure makes for a stronger case.

What? Antitrust isn't solely about marketshare and having a monopoly. You can behave in anticompetitive ways that break antitrust laws without having a monopoly.

Re: Google’s ‘Project Hug’ paid out huge sums to keep game devs in the Play Store

#132

Post by filoleg » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

galleywest wrote: post #121

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it make a difference that Apple is the hardware manufacturer, whereas Microsoft just provides the OS for PCs in general?

Microsoft DOES sell hardware. The Surface series anybody?

It does now. The discussion isn’t about Microsoft in the present time, it is about Microsoft in the time when they lost their anti-trust lawsuit.

Re: Google’s ‘Project Hug’ paid out huge sums to keep game devs in the Play Store

#133

Post by dalbasal » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

jakecopp wrote: post #9

> After another meeting between Apple and Google senior executives, notes showed that the execs agreed: "Our vision is that we work as if we are one company." ... > This unredacted graf shows that telcos get up to 25% of Google's app sales to keep them from developing rival app stores on the smartphones they sell and service. Insane reading.

>> 25% of Google's app sales to keep them from developing rival app stores

Google also pays Apple 7 billion annually^ to be its default SE. Despite Adwords' incredible profitability, Yahoo & MSFT's experience as 2nd place in that market was working very hard and earning $0 profits... Their Revenues @ were far lower than proportional to their market share, and costs are the opposite. Better to just take your share of monopoly profits than work hard competing, unless you expect to win their place.

This stuff is the norm. Maybe we should switch to being surprised (delighted?) when these guys compete at all.

^https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/06/08/apple-c...

Re: Google’s ‘Project Hug’ paid out huge sums to keep game devs in the Play Store

#134

Post by inetknght » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

sciprojguy wrote: post #129

shagie wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If apple prevented its licensees for the iPhone to bundle Safari rather than another browser... then this would be more applicable. However, Apple isn't extending its dominance in the smart phone area (Apple has 53% market share of mobile devices, Microsoft had above 90% market share for intel compatible PCs https://www.justice.gov/atr/us-v-microsoft-courts-findings-f... ) to its licensees for iOS. Apple not forcing…

"Samsung Branded iPhones"? This can't possibly be a thing.

Well, not at the current model with Apple's abusive position of manufacturing both the iPhone and iOS and Safari.

Re: Google’s ‘Project Hug’ paid out huge sums to keep game devs in the Play Store

#135

Post by overtonwhy » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

H8crilA wrote: post #45

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it make a difference that Apple is the hardware manufacturer, whereas Microsoft just provides the OS for PCs in general?

You mean Apple's monopoly position is even stronger because they can put roadblocks at the hardware level? :)

Because the whole device and experience is the product. It's not just an OS.

Re: Google’s ‘Project Hug’ paid out huge sums to keep game devs in the Play Store

#136

Post by grishka » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

encryptluks2 wrote: post #126

grishka wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. We just need two things: - it should be illegal to lock down a device against its end user - governments should stop protecting companies and helping prevent adversarial interoperability

> governments should stop protecting companies and helping prevent adversarial interoperability Do you realize that given our current laws in the US, that this is pretty much impossible?

As a person from a country that's not US... Everything being centralized around the US and other countries basically having no sovereignty is also a huge problem.

When two companies collude, it's illegal. When countries do the same, it's perfectly legal and is called a "trade agreement" because it's them who write laws.

Re: Google’s ‘Project Hug’ paid out huge sums to keep game devs in the Play Store

#137

Post by dalbasal » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #110

90% of things mentioned here should be super illegal and the punishment should be 150% estimated income they achieved through such deals.

100 years in the electric chair!

This isn't an "infraction" you can police with a fine, jail, etc. It's an industrial structure. The competition is competition for monopoly, a superior & highly profitable market position of some sort. Those are what make Google, FB & so profitable.

Google competed with Yahoo & Microsoft for years in search marketing. I don't believe either ever made significant profits. Their "market share" in terms of users may have been 10%-20%. But, their share of market revenues was a fraction of that. Their share of profits was negative.

OTOH Google pays (for example) Apple $7bn per year to make Google Search default. That's better than best case scenario profits MSFT or Yahoo could have hoped to make, unless they managed to replace Google in the no. 1 position.

Competing is just a lot less profitable than cooperating in a lot of cases. What is Apple supposed to do, say "keep it, we're good?"

Re: Google’s ‘Project Hug’ paid out huge sums to keep game devs in the Play Store

#138

Post by woofie11 » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

ren_engineer wrote: post #42

woofie11 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marketshare. The law sees marketshare. * Google and Apple compete against each other, so there is no monopoly. * Microsoft had no effective competitors. You don't need a monopoly for antitrust, but it sure makes for a stronger case.

Google and Apple have been caught colluding before on trying to keep software engineer salaries low. They also conveniently had the exact same app store fee for years. Doesn't make much sense if they were actually competing with each other

That's actually quite exactly the behavior you expect from a competitive duopoly. In a duopoly, I know that if I lower prices, you'll match. Operating at the Nash Equilibrium isn't anticompetitive.

I'm not disagreeing with the conclusion -- I agree that they are colluding -- but the logic isn't right.

Re: Google’s ‘Project Hug’ paid out huge sums to keep game devs in the Play Store

#139

Post by AlbertCory » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

laurent92 wrote: post #50

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it make a difference that Apple is the hardware manufacturer, whereas Microsoft just provides the OS for PCs in general?

It feels like I could find a line, to rationalize what happened or not to MS or Apple. But in reality, in the wake of 9/11, USA thought it was more important to have extremely large companies, and it let them grow. (And MS’ EU fine was related to not giving the API doc, and perhaps using fines as a political weapon). Clearly, if US applied the anti-monopoly laws, it would shoot its own companies. In my opinion howeve…

"In the wake of 9/11" is lazy writing. Kinda like businesses saying "we have crappy service, because of COVID."

Antitrust enforcement has more to do with the party in power than anything else. The Bush Administration wasn't interested in suing businesses, and now the Biden Administration is again.

Re: Google’s ‘Project Hug’ paid out huge sums to keep game devs in the Play Store

#140

Post by throwaway2048 » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #113

ren_engineer wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without the price collusion engineers might make 600-800K. Not sure why you are defending a Trillion dollar company illegally working with another Trillion dollar company to lower worker wages. The reason software engineer salaries remain high despite big tech collusion is that startups not in on the deal were willing to pay higher, which forces big tech to continue paying for talent. not sure why doctor wages are br…

I judge compensation based on what value people bring to society. I look around at the world created by software engineers and I'm not impressed. For every dystopian nightmare being foisted upon us, you have an "engineer" saying "Yes sir and what else would you like us to do to them?" to their higher ups at these trillion dollar companies. I'm sure hitman pays well also but I don't have to root for them to get higher…

The people that are archetechting the dystopian nightmare are capturing the excess value here, not sure why you think that's somehow a better situation.