Benefits of Not Using an IDE • Hacker News Board

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#141

Post by dharmab » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #60

bootlooped wrote: post #36

There is a common perception with electric bicycles that the rider will pedal less hard to go the same speed. But there is an alternative: they could pedal the same amount and go faster. I kind of view IDEs like that. You can use it as a crutch, or you can take the energy you would have used thinking about the things the IDE is now doing for you and focus it elsewhere.

veering off-topic, that's one of the problems I have with electric bikes - they stop being bicycles and become another kind of vehicle - a faster vehicle that needs longer stopping distances and now has a highe r fatality rate when colliding with a pedestrian. We see this in London cycle lanes. Some cycles are doing a commute, some are trying out for the olympics, some people are doing 25 on a electric scooter and th…

Motorcyling channel Fortnine did a video in depth on this topic: https://youtu.be/wM8Xli2KTzI

(They've also done some more motorized cycle and electric content lately. A recent video showed how to rebuild an old motorcycle's frame into an electric motorcycle using a kit.)

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#142

Post by gnuvince » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

pskinner wrote: post #77

MagicWishMonkey wrote: post #44

I know it's a personal anecdote, but 100% of the devs I've worked with who refused to use an IDE ranged from below average to flat out bad at software development.

Funny because my anecdote is that any devs I've worked with who only use an IDE are average to flat out bad at software development.

I conclude from your comment and the one above you that devs are average to flat out bad at software development.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#143

Post by noidesto » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

tcoff91 wrote: post #30

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #12

Maybe I’m weird, but at some point I stopped fixating on which tools to use and just settled on a personal workflow: * terminal open at root of project used for source control * one or more tabs for ssh/VMs etc * IDE/VSCode/vim for editing Any of those is fine. And sometimes I switch between them depending on my mood. If I’m out and about it can be nice to conserve battery and focus by going full terminal mode. If I…

vim-fugitive is also a great way to interact with git since you use vim.

magit for the emacs folk

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#144

Post by taeric » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

bootlooped wrote: post #36

There is a common perception with electric bicycles that the rider will pedal less hard to go the same speed. But there is an alternative: they could pedal the same amount and go faster. I kind of view IDEs like that. You can use it as a crutch, or you can take the energy you would have used thinking about the things the IDE is now doing for you and focus it elsewhere.

In practice... You absolutely peddle less hard on electric bikes. You still go faster, because motors.

So, at large, I would guess the "as a crutch" use happens far more.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#145

Post by jayceedenton » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #52

wokwokwok wrote: post #34

Listen, long story short: just say no to nonsense like this. Given the choice of a) tooling, or b) no tooling, you’re not being smart, cool or clever by choosing b. Obviously, what tools you pick are important and heavy IDEs like IntelliJ are a trade off between speed and functionality, and yeah, more nimble tools do exist, and it’s definitely worth trying different development tools to see what makes you most produc…

“Power drills have batteries or cords and motors that wear down and they’re more expensive and complex and can break more easily and it’s just smarter to bring hand crank tools to the worksite.” - Nobody

This is probably a good time to mention Tim Ewald's talk, Programming With Hand Tools:

https://youtu.be/ShEez0JkOFw

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#146

Post by avisser » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #5

I used Webstorm for years, but switched to VSCode. It's just more flexible, which allows me to use new tech/langs very quickly. If you don't focus on IDE features, you tend to implement quality of life improvements at a level that also works in an editor. Like in the language, framework, or library you're using (See the code generators point in the article). With languages like Rust, that have zero cost abstractions,…

> I used Webstorm for years, but switched to VSCode. > It's just more flexible, which allows me to use new tech/langs very quickly.

I'm sure you know, but Webstorm is limited by license/design. JetBrains sells editors to deal with almost every tech. I personally subscribe to the Toolbox for ~$200/yr and get all the IDEs. Some languages (like Rust) don't have a custom IDE, just a plugin into IntelliJ, the ur IDE from them.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#147

Post by bitwize » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

the_third_wave wrote: post #67

bitwize wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the benefits of working with KISS tools - the opposite of 'everything but the kitchen sink' in Emacs parlance - is that it significantly lowers the cognitive load. No. You're wrong. Not having the right tools raises the cognitive load. You just think it's simpler because you are severely restricted in the complexity of the programs you can create with just your brain and the documentation. IDEs expand the c…

You forgot to add " for me ... ". You also implicitly defined IDEs as " the right tools ". After that you imply that those who do not use " the right tools " (in your definition of "right") are " severely restricted in the complexity of the programs [they] can create ". In other words, you state that your way is the right way while my way is wrong . Notice I did not state that my way is the right way for everyone? Wh…

It's one of those "the mouse is objectively faster than the keyboard, no matter how much it feels otherwise" things. So much of the taxing minutiae of programming is automated away by a good IDE that, unless you're working on a very small project, the time and effort saved is worth it.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#148

Post by jlokier » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #86

Always use an IDE for significant software projects. Maybe not for small scripts, or for faffing about on your own learning to code Charles Petzold style. But for professionals working on production code, artificially restricting your productivity by denying yourself the time- and effort-saving features of a good IDE is tantamount to goldbricking.

Counterargument: Artificially restricting your productivity by denying yourself the features of a high-functioning daily-driver editor and CLI git+make and replacing them with a low quality IDE that lacks useful features and the features in it don't work very well anyway is tantamount to goldbricking.

This is very common in embedded systems.

I ditched one such IDE in a project a couple of years ago and switched to Emacs + git + make + command line compilers. The productivity improvement was huge. Finally, decent tools.

Even debugging worked better via command line GDB. It was more reliable than the one in the IDE, and scriptable.

The quality of what went into the repo went up as well.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#149

Post by ByteJockey » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

IlliOnato wrote: post #96

The author seems to use IDE for one purpose only: to auto-generate boilerplate code. But this is far from the only benefits of IDEs! I rarely use IDEs for code generation, I don't even like autocomplete. For this stuff I use code snippets; I develop collections of those for any language I use. You don't need an IDE for it; any good text editor has such features. For me really important features of a good IDE are: - N…

If those are the things you're using to define an ide, then vim/emacs/vscode have been ides for a while now.

Seriously, lsps have gotten really good.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#150

Post by zo1 » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

snazz wrote: post #98

bootlooped wrote: post #36

There is a common perception with electric bicycles that the rider will pedal less hard to go the same speed. But there is an alternative: they could pedal the same amount and go faster. I kind of view IDEs like that. You can use it as a crutch, or you can take the energy you would have used thinking about the things the IDE is now doing for you and focus it elsewhere.

To extend that analogy, I choose a regular bicycle because I ride for fun and exercise, not speed. But if biking were a serious mode of transportation for me, I would get one that gave me the most assistance possible so I could go faster and farther. IDEs are similar. If you want to be as efficient as possible and get as much done as possible, you want an IDE. But if learning and exercising your mind is the goal, you…

Now imagine your job being to get from point A to B. 99.5% of all the devs I've seen that insist on "VS Code" struggle so bad it's laughable, and yet when you point it out they turn it into some sort of IDE pissing contest.