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Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#21

Post by jeromegv »

benf76 wrote: post #7
michaelhah wrote: post #5

One thing left out of the article is whether we should be vaccinating people to discourage spread simply to keep the risk of a much worse variant from randomly occurring low.

There is a risk of creating variants by mass vaccination. If everyone has a uniform defense generated by a vaccine, this creates selection pressures for a variant that is able to maneuver around the vaccine induced immunity.

All the worst variants right now have developed in unvaccinated population.

So either you sacrifice 1-2% of the population and let variants continue while not vaccinating anyone. Or you get vaccinated and reduce your risks of going to the hospital by a ratio of 30:1.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#22

Post by walterbell »

XorNot wrote: post #10
timthorn wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question asked by the article is sensible. The uncertainty explored is whether, having had an initial vaccination, future natural infection would produce a better defence against variants than booster shots that target the spike protein alone.

Which is irrelevant: the booster vaccines are to provide sustained protection against the variants we have now and reduce the risk of serious complications. There is no situation in which it is a good idea to be infected with a virus rather then vaccinated against it, and comments on provided immunity from infection are irrelevant: you either become immune to what infected you or it kills you.

Current Covid vaccines are non-sterilizing. They reduce symptoms, but cannot guarantee that you will not be infected. This is covered in the article in the discussion of antibodies in the upper respiratory system (obtained from natural infection) vs antibodies in the blood (obtained from vaccination or natural infection). Future nasal vaccines, delivered by inhaler, could potentially provide sterilizing immunity, preventing infection: https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=28256342

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#23

Post by jeromegv »

XorNot wrote: post #10
timthorn wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question asked by the article is sensible. The uncertainty explored is whether, having had an initial vaccination, future natural infection would produce a better defence against variants than booster shots that target the spike protein alone.

Which is irrelevant: the booster vaccines are to provide sustained protection against the variants we have now and reduce the risk of serious complications. There is no situation in which it is a good idea to be infected with a virus rather then vaccinated against it, and comments on provided immunity from infection are irrelevant: you either become immune to what infected you or it kills you.

Funny how those anti-vaxers in hospitals don’t advocate that it was all worth it for their immunity they just built.

You either get the immunity through a shot or through an infection. One has very much worse chances of bringing you to the hospital.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#24

Post by PartiallyTyped »

blueflow wrote: post #9
michaelhah wrote: post #5

One thing left out of the article is whether we should be vaccinating people to discourage spread simply to keep the risk of a much worse variant from randomly occurring low.

Cross-reference it to https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/leaky-vac... I suspect we have the deadlier variants not despite, but because we are vaccinating and the vaccination is not effective in preventing spread.

That assumption is based on the belief that an infection prevents reinfection, i.e. an infection is just as good at protecting a (recovered) patient as a vaccine is at protecting an uninfected person.

But we have seen that Delta reinfects previously infected patients, ergo, an infection is at a best a leaky vaccine (ie as good as current vaccines, though there are indications that it is not [1]), and at worse, a catalyst to worse outcomes considering the danger done during previous infection, b) a vaccine is not offered to the previously infected, c) the effects of long term covid.

[1] https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera...

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#25

Post by Vecr »

XorNot wrote: post #10
timthorn wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question asked by the article is sensible. The uncertainty explored is whether, having had an initial vaccination, future natural infection would produce a better defence against variants than booster shots that target the spike protein alone.

Which is irrelevant: the booster vaccines are to provide sustained protection against the variants we have now and reduce the risk of serious complications. There is no situation in which it is a good idea to be infected with a virus rather then vaccinated against it, and comments on provided immunity from infection are irrelevant: you either become immune to what infected you or it kills you.

Why? Natural boosting is totally legitimate, look at the rotavirus strategy in the US for example. You get the vaccine three times soon after you are born, and then never again after that, because your immune system matures and you get infected (without severe symptoms) many times.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#27

Post by ekianjo »

michaelhah wrote: post #5

One thing left out of the article is whether we should be vaccinating people to discourage spread simply to keep the risk of a much worse variant from randomly occurring low.

> we should be vaccinating people to discourage spread

Vaccinations with current vaccines don't stop infections/spread at all - it's very obvious now with the Delta variant in countries that are already massively vaccinated like Israel and Island.

In fact, vaccinated people can apparently carry just as high of a viral load as unvaccinated people (while vaccinated people will likely experience less symptoms). So the virus will happily keep infecting as many people as it can regardless of the vaccines.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#28

Post by Rezwoodly »

meheleventyone wrote: post #11

Tangentially related but I’m on day 9 of COVID infection which is easily the longest I’ve been sick in years. I got two shots of Pfizer last one on the 13th of July. If the vaccine has kept this relatively mild then I’m very glad. It sucks. My main symptoms are a stuffed up face, cough, sore throat, aching body and an extremely fuzzy head that seems to come and go. I had a slightly raised temp at the start but otherw…

Uh, you did get vaccinated and still have these symptoms. You could also fairly end your TLDR with 'did get vaccinated, this sucks'. It seems we are still learning about the efficacy of the vaccines, and the nature of the virus. From this pov I understand why some are hesitant to be vaccinated in this phase of the pandemic

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#29

Post by cactus2093 »

ekianjo wrote: post #27
michaelhah wrote: post #5

One thing left out of the article is whether we should be vaccinating people to discourage spread simply to keep the risk of a much worse variant from randomly occurring low.

> we should be vaccinating people to discourage spread Vaccinations with current vaccines don't stop infections/spread at all - it's very obvious now with the Delta variant in countries that are already massively vaccinated like Israel and Island. In fact, vaccinated people can apparently carry just as high of a viral load as unvaccinated people (while vaccinated people will likely experience less symptoms). So the v…

Reported your comment for misinformation, this is untrue.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#30

Post by gambiting »

benf76 wrote: post #7
michaelhah wrote: post #5

One thing left out of the article is whether we should be vaccinating people to discourage spread simply to keep the risk of a much worse variant from randomly occurring low.

There is a risk of creating variants by mass vaccination. If everyone has a uniform defense generated by a vaccine, this creates selection pressures for a variant that is able to maneuver around the vaccine induced immunity.

Absolute nonsense though, as proven by looking at literally any of the diseases we have been vaccinating people for decades. Polio vaccine hasn't caused super polio to emerge, just like vaccines haven't caused super variants of hepatitis B, tetanus or whooping cough - all things that children are vaccinated against.

Even the flu vaccine doesn't cause new variants, and that has a spotty coverage at best.

Like, what you said sounds scienc-y enough that a lot of people seem to believe it, but it's literally not true and has never been true.

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