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Home Prices Are Now Higher Than the Peak of the 2000s Housing Bubble

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Re: Home Prices Are Now Higher Than the Peak of the 2000s Housing Bubble

#261
post #3

So is this finally the inflation that we were promised for so long? I guess all that money created during covid had to go somewhere. Too bad it's not going into education or healthcare...

The property taxes on this bubble will go into education at least.

Which will then be squandered.

Re: Home Prices Are Now Higher Than the Peak of the 2000s Housing Bubble

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Build more and ban investment properties. No more AirBnB, no more rentals. Prices will come down and those people who previously had to rent, will now be able to own and life will be better for everyone except the poor souls who bought in the last 20 years.

Add a progresssive tax on land. The more land you own, the more you pay. This forces developers to focus on denser housing while the average home owner can be left alone. The tricky part is that home owners will knowingly defend the interests of real estate corporations because they want their own tax bill to be low.

This is pretty damn hard to do. Any legal entity owning land could split it into multiple entities, who're avoiding the progressive tax. There'll probably be a million loopholes for that. Changing zoning is politically difficult, but a much more simple and effective policy approach if you can get it through.

Re: Home Prices Are Now Higher Than the Peak of the 2000s Housing Bubble

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2008 had a lot of variable rate mortgages. That's not the case today. Most people (at least I'd hope) don't use their house as an investment so if their mortgage is still the same payment each month and they can afford it there's no reason they'd default and tank their credit. The losses are purely paper losses.

it's the other way :D, since i bought the house in 2015, my gains are paper gains (~200%), but my property taxes are real loses, since they've grown almost twice as well.

Not sure about that in general, although it can differ for each state and could apply in your state. In general, US tax income from property taxes has not risen, in fact it's slightly come down as a percentage of income. That means that while the tax base (property values) have increased sharply, the tax rate for property has come down.

Most municipalities will first establish how much tax revenue they need, then look at the total property values that's taxable, and then set an appropriate rate. If property values double but municipal expenses don't, they can and do lower the property taxes. It's not a 1 on 1 relationship but given average property tax income as a percentage of total income has slightly come down over the past decades, it's clear that tax rates are being reduced as property values go up.

Re: Home Prices Are Now Higher Than the Peak of the 2000s Housing Bubble

#264
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But also salaries have risen and additionally so has the value proposition of owning a home compared to living in an apartment. Why? Because they've stopped building homes for the most part in desirable areas close to big tech companies.

Salaries have not risen outside of certain industries like tech

That's simply not true, in nominal terms income has increased quite substantially. In real terms they haven't climbed much, but then you're comparing a home price increase to an income that's already been adjusted for prices, that makes no sense.

To understand if housing became more affordable you'd have to look at nominal income levels versus nominal housing costs.

Look at median income for example here: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA646N

That's a 50% increase since 2008. It's not the top 1%, it's not an average where the high-earners jack up the average. It's a median, the middle-earning person in the US, now earning 50% more yearly than 2008. Combined with much lower interest rates and consistently bigger homes, housing is much more affordable compared to then.

Re: Home Prices Are Now Higher Than the Peak of the 2000s Housing Bubble

#265

They cite the numbers in "real terms", which would mean inflation adjusted: > The average price of American homes, in real terms, is now the highest it's ever been Of course, you really need to be looking at mortgage rates to understand housing affordability: http://www.freddiemac.com/pmms/pmms30.html July 2021 average 30-year mortgage rate: 2.87% (with 0.7 points) 2008 12-month average 30-year mortgage rate: 6.03% (…

> excluding down payment Therein lies the rub. It’s true that inflation adjusted average monthly mortgage payments have remained surprisingly constant over the last 40 years [*], since as you point out, low interest rates generally offset high home values (and vice versa). However, accruing enough cash in the first place to afford huge down payments keeps a lot of people out of the market who could otherwise afford t…

> inflation adjusted average monthly mortgage payments have remained surprisingly constant over the last 40 years

Not sure why this is surprising. You can only afford a certain % of your income on housing, and if it gets too high you simply don't participate in the housing market

Re: Home Prices Are Now Higher Than the Peak of the 2000s Housing Bubble

#266
post #178

They cite the numbers in "real terms", which would mean inflation adjusted: > The average price of American homes, in real terms, is now the highest it's ever been Of course, you really need to be looking at mortgage rates to understand housing affordability: http://www.freddiemac.com/pmms/pmms30.html July 2021 average 30-year mortgage rate: 2.87% (with 0.7 points) 2008 12-month average 30-year mortgage rate: 6.03% (…

> "...Houses are still way cheaper, in actual out-of-pocket terms for average people, than they were in 2008. Today's interest rates are way too low." Only true for a small minority...Although your calculations are correct, its not how it works. What matters is average house price to income ratio and the Housing Affordability Index, that measures whether or not a typical family earns enough income to qualify for a mo…

I like the definition you mentioned as well. The problem is that it's very hard to get good data on it. The first link certainly doesn't do a good job of anything, I immediately see it has the common problem of looking at prices rather than monthly payments. That's just bad academics. In the Netherlands for example I get 1% interest rates. In Denmark interest rates are negative. In the US they're 2.8%. In NZ they're >4%. That leads to wildly different affordability at the same price-to-income ratio. The graphs of the affordability ratings (based on only price-to-income) declining are a complete joke as it completely ignores the interest rates dropping hard, leading to higher borrowing capacity and lower payments per dollar borrowed.

The other links I haven't all studied, but for example in the Netherlands where I'm from Amsterdam, the situation (and the article) is entirely not in line with your definition.

For one, jobs aren't all centralised around Amsterdam. The Netherlands has a concept of the Randstad which includes all the four major cities in the country, which all happen to be within a 60 minute commute from oneanother. All the little towns and villages within and surrounding this area comprise of about 60% of the country's population, again, all within a 60min commute. It's thereby silly to look at the housing market of just Amsterdam, when the majority of the country lives in a close commute from jobs centres and doesn't need to live in Amsterdam. Note that from the centre of the country, the closest border (of the country) is 57km away and the furthest border is 175km away, that's how small this place is. It's misleading to look at prices of a single capital city and ignore the fact most of the country lives around the corner with prices that are But supposing we look at Amsterdam, the article then makes a crucial mistake by comparing a single Dutch person to an average Amsterdam house. Since when is a single Dutch person an average Amsterdam household? The average household in the Netherlands has 2.2 people, so you may double the borrowing capacity. And second, Amsterdam's owner-occupied homeowners aren't making average money because they've got Capital city above-average jobs. If you live in Amsterdam as a home-owner, you're exposed to jobs that pay far more than the average joe jobs outside the capital. The average income is about 55% higher (see CBS figures).

In short you're looking at double incomes which average 55% higher in the average Amsterdam owner occupied household, or 3x the income. Given how the borrowing capacity works here that translates to about 3.5x more purchasing capacity than the article mentions.

The article also fails to differentiate between average income in the Netherlands (which includes people on welfare, people without jobs, students, people who work 20 hours a week etc) to average full-time salaries, which are typically the group looking to buy a home.

One thing people often fail to acknowledge is that when a claim is made that X is unaffordable, that the fact prices are so high actually may signal the opposite. The fact home prices have increased by hundreds of thousands despite borrowing rules not having changed much, means there's actually a lot of demand at these prices. If nobody could afford these expensive homes, prices would've come crashing down. There's been a record amount of homes sold in the Netherlands last year, the majority of the country is home-owner, and LTI and LTV rates have been trending down the past years (indicating people are actually using less and less of their borrowing capacity).

Re: Home Prices Are Now Higher Than the Peak of the 2000s Housing Bubble

#267
post #238

They cite the numbers in "real terms", which would mean inflation adjusted: > The average price of American homes, in real terms, is now the highest it's ever been Of course, you really need to be looking at mortgage rates to understand housing affordability: http://www.freddiemac.com/pmms/pmms30.html July 2021 average 30-year mortgage rate: 2.87% (with 0.7 points) 2008 12-month average 30-year mortgage rate: 6.03% (…

Color me un-reassured. It never ends well when you have a massive market driven by people who only think in terms of monthly payment.

Why? In a country with mostly variable rate interest rates like NZ, and at most 5y fixed loans, that's disastrous. But in markets like the US where you can fix your payments for 30 years, driving your purchasing decision by the affordability of those monthly payments which are fixed for the entire duration of the contract, is a very decent foundation for a market.

Re: Home Prices Are Now Higher Than the Peak of the 2000s Housing Bubble

#269
post #2

Name something that costs less in 2021 than in the 2000s?

Almost everything. Important exceptions are housing, health care and education, which have large impacts on COL. But most else is cheaper.

Not sure about that either.

e.g. housing: https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2021/03/what-if-housing-pri...

Re: Home Prices Are Now Higher Than the Peak of the 2000s Housing Bubble

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.

What in particular is this in response to?

If you’re going to arbitrate etiquette, lead by example. Following part of it when it suits you defeats the point of bringing it up.
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