A lot of people are getting the OnlyFans story wrong • Hacker News Board

Re: A lot of people are getting the OnlyFans story wrong

#401

Post by rnd0 » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 7:59 AM UTC

krapp wrote: post #37

nszceta wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no room for discussion. Your civil liberties are being eroded with this measure.

Don't say "there is no room for discussion" on a discussion forum, it's obnoxious.

Being obnoxious doesn't make it any less true (nor does using the latest thought terminating cliche of calling it a "thought-terminating cliche").

This was designed with the intent of taking our civil liberties away, and that is the effect it will have in the end.

All the debate in the world does not change that -in fact that debate (rife with "just playing devil's advocate" nonsense undoubtably) will only serve to kick up dust and obscure the bottom line issue.

Re: A lot of people are getting the OnlyFans story wrong

#402

Post by johnnyanmac » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 8:00 AM UTC

kilroy123 wrote: post #216

MBCook wrote: post #57

There was also a recent BBC investigation into OnlyFans that found they constantly bent their rules for popular content makers and had a real problem with sub-18 people on the platform. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-58255865

If there really are minors on there, I'm glad they're being forced to clean up their act. Downvote me all you want for feeling that way.

on a site revceiving tens of thousands of media a day over years, it's very to point to a dozen pieces and say that the entire site is full of it.

Humans don't reason with large numbers very well and I have a hunch that OF was just another recent victim of this psychological phenomenon. Especially when I read attempts to cast them that way with

>In May, BBC News revealed the site was failing to prevent under-18s from selling and appearing in explicit videos, despite it being illegal for children to do so. At the time, OnlyFans said attempts to use the site fraudulently were "rare".

but end up also mentoning:

> Under-18s have used fake identification to set up accounts, and police say a 14-year-old used her grandmother's passport.

aside form these mentions, most of the article focuses on prostitution. Which is a much more gray moral quandry than underage participants.

Re: A lot of people are getting the OnlyFans story wrong

#403

Post by johnnyanmac » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 8:03 AM UTC

rendall wrote: post #94

I've never heard a good argument against prostitution. The arguments that I hear are against trafficking, rape, child molestation; which are all non-sequiturs: true and valid statements that do not support the argument itself. Can anyone here argue against prostitution per se? I'll listen.

I haven't heard a good one either. But I've heard many times that quashing prostitution is well worth stopping trafficking/rate/etc. So that's how these tactics work.

In theory I think so too, but in reality I'm going to guess most of the actual trafficking isn't actually happening in the open on one the biggest adult sites. They just have the biggest targets to hit.

Re: A lot of people are getting the OnlyFans story wrong

#404

Post by johnnyanmac » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 8:05 AM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #145

rendall wrote: post #94

I've never heard a good argument against prostitution. The arguments that I hear are against trafficking, rape, child molestation; which are all non-sequiturs: true and valid statements that do not support the argument itself. Can anyone here argue against prostitution per se? I'll listen.

It's said to objectify women. More specifically, the Johns are treating women's bodies as something that can be traded commercially. The more that is normalised, the more it damages all women - not just prostitutes. If you don't think objectifying women harms them, then that's not a "good" argument, I guess. FTR, I'm against laws controlling consensual sex. Not all harmful behaviour should be criminalised.

"Not all harmful behaviour should be criminalised."

my country certainly thought so with fast food a few decades ago, despite it arguably contributing to the obesity epidemic. And alcohol a century ago.

I agree with you, just pointing out society's hypocrisy.

Re: A lot of people are getting the OnlyFans story wrong

#405

Post by johnnyanmac » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 8:11 AM UTC

wruza wrote: post #357

neolog wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bodies are used commercially all the time, such as in manual labor, physical therapy, disability care, security, policing, military service, athletics, dancing, commercial modeling, ... The problem that's particular to sex work is legal systems that fail to prevent coercion. This is exacerbated by religious advocacy groups that try to make sex work harder without making it safer.

It seems that you equate sex to manual labour, when it is one of our important biosocial functions (if not the central) that involves much more complex reactions and distortions at all sides (a prostitute, a client, an aware neighborhood/society) than kicking a shovel into the dirt or massaging a muscle. It’s always baffling how some people try to render it as just a mechanical process akin to workout and/or blowing…

>It’s always baffling how some people try to render it as just a mechanical process akin to workout and/or blowing a nose.

at the end of the day, that's all it is. There will be people who put more thought and care into the action and treat it as an intimate ritual to be done on special occasion, and then there will be people who treat it as another biological commodity to manage like food or air. People do so regarding various other activities after all.

I don't think either viewpoint is invalid. it comes down the individual like every other action in our lives. but the argument here that it "damages women" arguably harms both of the described behaviors. One for feeling the action "binds" them to people that may otherwise be (or have become), incompatible or even toxic to them. But they were inside so they gotta stick around. And the other for making it increasingly difficult to perform an activity they enjoy.

Re: A lot of people are getting the OnlyFans story wrong

#406

Post by johnnyanmac » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 8:13 AM UTC

slippery_bridge wrote: post #347

neolog wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bodies are used commercially all the time, such as in manual labor, physical therapy, disability care, security, policing, military service, athletics, dancing, commercial modeling, ... The problem that's particular to sex work is legal systems that fail to prevent coercion. This is exacerbated by religious advocacy groups that try to make sex work harder without making it safer.

Paying somebody to do something physical and paying somebody to physically use their body are two completely different things

If the two parties consent to the action and transaction, there's no business difference. governments have just decided one action is illegal while the other not.

Re: A lot of people are getting the OnlyFans story wrong

#407

Post by johnnyanmac » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 8:16 AM UTC

throw_awa123 wrote: post #149

rendall wrote: post #94

I've never heard a good argument against prostitution. The arguments that I hear are against trafficking, rape, child molestation; which are all non-sequiturs: true and valid statements that do not support the argument itself. Can anyone here argue against prostitution per se? I'll listen.

This is just an opinion from a real world example: I've done some stripping when I was young. I did it because my gf was doing it and was making a lot of money. This was the only way we could make good money without breaking the law. I've met the most broken and scummy people there is during that time. It ultimately broke our 7 year relationship. You pay an emotional price for making easy money. You have to be very s…

Wouldn't you think that's the result of the fact that it's illegal and pushing away

1. legal protections for the performers

2. "not broken" people who are driven away due to seeing it as "skeevy"

3. As seen here, other mediums where the performer has almost 100% control over the audience?

I imagine in some bizzaro world where cash registery workers are "illegal" that you'd run into very similar problem. People suck. And these "dirty" jobs make you run into sucky people more often.

Re: A lot of people are getting the OnlyFans story wrong

#408

Post by johnnyanmac » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 8:18 AM UTC

neutronicus wrote: post #185

rendall wrote: post #94

I've never heard a good argument against prostitution. The arguments that I hear are against trafficking, rape, child molestation; which are all non-sequiturs: true and valid statements that do not support the argument itself. Can anyone here argue against prostitution per se? I'll listen.

The usual argument relies on: "On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows."[1] The increased demand for sex work in the wake of legalization results in more people forced into involuntary sex work, despite the presence of legally-protected sex workers. [1] https://papers.ssrn.co/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

I wonder if this has actual correlation or is a result of "population maps": https://xkcd.com/1138/

Re: A lot of people are getting the OnlyFans story wrong

#409

Post by johnnyanmac » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 8:23 AM UTC

daptaq wrote: post #256

vbezhenar wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A generic argument: prostitution allows woman without any skills to earn plenty of money which might convince women do go this way even if they don't really enjoy it. The same argument could be made about IT. Prostitutes sell their private parts, programmers sell their brains.

One aspect I find frightening about interpreting prositution as a "real job" is that women could be denied unemployment benifits if they reject a job that would involve them selling their body and their consent. > The same argument could be made about IT. Prostitutes sell their private parts, programmers sell their brains. I don't think this works, because a brain is a "tool" used to "produce" a service, while a pros…

>while a prositute is actually just providing their body to be used.

I imaging it depends on the person and area, much like every other "social job", no?

I argue the lack of legal protections are what allows them to be reduced to objects. For the tech equivalent, look at the game industry and some of the more extreme examples of crunch. Not just some month long sprint before release, but months, sometimes years of 12 hour work days to some billion dollar coporation not paying overtime, that may not even give you paychecks on time.

and those are "legal jobs". I can't imagine how much lower it goes when the governemt not only turns a blind eye, but punishes you on top of it all.

Re: A lot of people are getting the OnlyFans story wrong

#410

Post by johnnyanmac » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 8:26 AM UTC

lishzen wrote: post #335

rendall wrote: post #94

I've never heard a good argument against prostitution. The arguments that I hear are against trafficking, rape, child molestation; which are all non-sequiturs: true and valid statements that do not support the argument itself. Can anyone here argue against prostitution per se? I'll listen.

Yours is a short question to make, but it requires a very long answer, not fit for a comment box. The negative consequences of prostitution are deeply personal because the effects of sex on the participants go deeper and last longer than the effects of the act of copulation. If you want a good argument against prostitution one route could be to understand the link between sexual expression and: intimacy, self esteem,…

>If you want a good argument against prostitution one route could be to understand the link between sexual expression and: intimacy, self esteem, love, relationships...

yes, but many actions have those links. this is the basis for the war on drugs that is just now ending in my country.

The argument isn't "does it affect people", but "does it CONSISTENTLY affect enough people negatively that it needs to be outlawed/extremely restricted?" Many of the argument I read against prostituion would be solved by... making it legal and having legal protections of workers. Or at least decriminalizing it for workers so they aren't punished for reporting abuse.