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Modern Civil Disobedience - Tim DeChristopher

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11–20 of 37 posts

Re: Modern Civil Disobedience - Tim DeChristopher

#11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't you an environmentalist? I'm not suggesting it's the only philosophy one can legitimately hold, but I'm wondering where your disagreement with the core tenets of environmentalism (sustainable growth and concern for human health and ecological balance) comes from.

Can't speak for dublinclontarf, but personally I'm not too concerned for the environment simply because I'm fairly indifferent as to whether mankind makes it or not. The Universe has been doing quite well without us for billions of years and will continue to do so if we are too dumb to keep our little rock habitable (which I suspect may be the case). Oh and we're not planning to have kids :)

Whether "mankind makes it" in the end matters or not, our not making it would involve millennia of avoidable human suffering. It's a little hard to care about anything without caring about that, which I think is what your parent was getting at.

Re: Modern Civil Disobedience - Tim DeChristopher

#12
post #5
post #3

How often does someone get sent to prison for 2 years because they bid at an auction more than they could afford to pay at the moment they made the bid? Is it very common to prosecute this in a criminal trial, or is this completely unheard of?

not so, he was able and willing to pay for the land, but the BLM doesnt allow people to buy land w/o drilling for oil. So he was charged with "disrupting a lawful government activity" - even though in fact those BLM auctions are NOT lawful.

Wow, thanks, I didn't realize he even had the money but the issue was that he wanted to buy the land without drilling on it and that was enough to got to prison for two years. That is pretty amazing.

Re: Modern Civil Disobedience - Tim DeChristopher

#13
post #9
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not so, he was able and willing to pay for the land, but the BLM doesnt allow people to buy land w/o drilling for oil. So he was charged with "disrupting a lawful government activity" - even though in fact those BLM auctions are NOT lawful.

Using illegal methods to disrupt illegal activities is not legal. You can't shoot a guy to stop him running a red light. There are rules about Citizen's arrests, but they are pretty specific. On the other hand, making a nuisance bid at an auction (especially when you are forthright about your actions, which he claims he was) doesn't seem like a serious criminal act.

He didn't just make himself a nuisance, though.

He did two illegal acts: 1. He misrepresented himself by saying that he was a legitimate buyer for the drilling rights. 2. He was unable to pay for the bids he won.

Both of which are pretty cut and dry fraud charges. Those are what he was found guilty for.

If he had just broken into the meeting and annoyed the people present, I would have a different opinion about his punishment, but what he did here was clearly illegal. If he's serious about this being a case of civil disobedience, he should accept the consequences of his actions. Trying to avoid the consequences just defeats the entire purpose.

Re: Modern Civil Disobedience - Tim DeChristopher

#14

He was essentially being punished, made an example of for political reasons. I'm not an environmentalist, but thats not right.

Why aren't you an environmentalist? I'm not suggesting it's the only philosophy one can legitimately hold, but I'm wondering where your disagreement with the core tenets of environmentalism (sustainable growth and concern for human health and ecological balance) comes from.

I can't speak for him either, but I'll speak for those of us who are against destroying the environment but won't use the word environmentalist as it, like the word organic and the word christian, have been co-opted by evil bastards with corporate control agendas. Screw all that. It is impossible to take "environmentalism" seriously as a movement when you have people like Al Gore respected, and the Goldman Sachs controlled Carbon exchanges the purpose of which is obvious and it's not to reduce needless consumption.

Re: Modern Civil Disobedience - Tim DeChristopher

#15
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't you an environmentalist? I'm not suggesting it's the only philosophy one can legitimately hold, but I'm wondering where your disagreement with the core tenets of environmentalism (sustainable growth and concern for human health and ecological balance) comes from.

I can't speak for him either, but I'll speak for those of us who are against destroying the environment but won't use the word environmentalist as it, like the word organic and the word christian, have been co-opted by evil bastards with corporate control agendas. Screw all that. It is impossible to take "environmentalism" seriously as a movement when you have people like Al Gore respected, and the Goldman Sachs cont…

Is libertarianism defined by Ayn Rand? Is capitalism defined by Donald Trump? Let's put Gore aside for a minute, and focus on the core issues. An environmentalist is someone who, fundamentally, sees the protection of the environment (for practical and/or idealogical reasons) as one of our most serious responsibilities. To say that certain people who identify with the movement are wrong, therefore the movement is wrong, is to say you can't believe in animal rights without being a PETA supporter. It's just a terribly flawed argument. Flipping it on it's head, I could say that environmentalism is beyond reproach because it has people like David Suzuki [1] as its champions. Those arguments simply don't hold water.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Suzuki

Re: Modern Civil Disobedience - Tim DeChristopher

#16
post #13
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using illegal methods to disrupt illegal activities is not legal. You can't shoot a guy to stop him running a red light. There are rules about Citizen's arrests, but they are pretty specific. On the other hand, making a nuisance bid at an auction (especially when you are forthright about your actions, which he claims he was) doesn't seem like a serious criminal act.

He didn't just make himself a nuisance, though. He did two illegal acts: 1. He misrepresented himself by saying that he was a legitimate buyer for the drilling rights. 2. He was unable to pay for the bids he won. Both of which are pretty cut and dry fraud charges. Those are what he was found guilty for. If he had just broken into the meeting and annoyed the people present, I would have a different opinion about his p…

Actually he COULD pay for the bids he won, he just wasn't intending to drill them.

Re: Modern Civil Disobedience - Tim DeChristopher

#17

He was essentially being punished, made an example of for political reasons. I'm not an environmentalist, but thats not right.

Why aren't you an environmentalist? I'm not suggesting it's the only philosophy one can legitimately hold, but I'm wondering where your disagreement with the core tenets of environmentalism (sustainable growth and concern for human health and ecological balance) comes from.

I just won't wear that label, sure I care about having a clean environment, nice land yadda yadda but I wont describe myself as an environmentalist for reasons that others have pointed out in this thread.

Re: Modern Civil Disobedience - Tim DeChristopher

#18
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't speak for dublinclontarf, but personally I'm not too concerned for the environment simply because I'm fairly indifferent as to whether mankind makes it or not. The Universe has been doing quite well without us for billions of years and will continue to do so if we are too dumb to keep our little rock habitable (which I suspect may be the case). Oh and we're not planning to have kids :)

Whether "mankind makes it" in the end matters or not, our not making it would involve millennia of avoidable human suffering. It's a little hard to care about anything without caring about that, which I think is what your parent was getting at.

You are aware that mankind has subjected itself to avoidable suffering for as long as we could swing a stick, right? We have hundreds of millions suffering (avoidably might I add) right now and even if we somehow managed to keep Earth squeaky clean - I see a lot more avoidable suffering for the millennia to come.

If anything, significantly reducing Earth's capacity to sustain humans may paradoxically result in diminished total human suffering (average suffering x number of humans) due to lower population.

For what it's worth I do care, courtesy to my overly empathetic neural wiring. I'd argue that I am doing a lot more than my peers to reduce future human suffering simply by not contributing to the overpopulation. Not that any of it matters in the grand scheme of things ;)

Keep fighting the good fight, I admire your zeal!

Re: Modern Civil Disobedience - Tim DeChristopher

#19
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for him either, but I'll speak for those of us who are against destroying the environment but won't use the word environmentalist as it, like the word organic and the word christian, have been co-opted by evil bastards with corporate control agendas. Screw all that. It is impossible to take "environmentalism" seriously as a movement when you have people like Al Gore respected, and the Goldman Sachs cont…

Is libertarianism defined by Ayn Rand? Is capitalism defined by Donald Trump? Let's put Gore aside for a minute, and focus on the core issues. An environmentalist is someone who, fundamentally, sees the protection of the environment (for practical and/or idealogical reasons) as one of our most serious responsibilities. To say that certain people who identify with the movement are wrong, therefore the movement is wron…

The deal with this is that I am an environmentalist in the traditional sense. I have an extremely low "carbon footprint" but not because I believe in the Goldman Sachs propaganda of doom. However, far less that 5% of "Environmentalists" I have ever met practice what they preach. It is a religion of mass hypocrisy, just like "Christianity", which likewise has almost nothing at all to do with its defined core teachings. Therefore, it is foolish to apply these labels anymore to the cause or belief or movement or whatever you want to call it.

One can be or be not. Talk is bullcrap. "Environmentalism" is about talk and politics and taking control away from people and their lives, and it's about making money. It's not about reducing consumption and waste. Not at all.

You also bring up PeTA. Let's instead talk about the label "Animal Rights Activist". I am opposed to factory farms and slaughterhouses where animals are abused and tortured for profit. I'd like to see all of these either reformed or shut down. The abuse of animals is so severe that I consider it completely unethical to eat products from these places. As a result, since I am a omnivore and veganism made me sick, I have to raise and hunt my own meat because that I have control over and can do so in as ethical and humane a manner as possible. Yes it involves killing but I do so with respect for the animal and its life. Those I raise have a good life before slaughter. I would much rather just buy humanely raised meat, that would be less trouble, but it's not possible in the US. Few others do this, that is their own business. But am I an "Animal Rights Activist"? Absolutely not. That is a label of cranks who do things like set fire to cars and destroy perfectly good fur coats. PeTA kills 85% of the animals it rescues. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/04/27/peta-and-eu...)

Likewise with consumption. Wow it would be nice to drive around and fly and use air conditioning. Does your place of work have air conditioning? Mine does not because I choose not do do so because it is wasteful compared to a fan. Do you drive to work every day? I don't because it is outrageous to think that personal gas combustion vehicles is sustainable, and electric hybrids with their batteries are even worse. Do you raise most of your own food? I do. Screw the environmentalists, driving from meeting to meeting in their gas guzzling leaded gasoline running VW busses, and their private jets, and their olympic sized heated swimming pools, their destruction of the soil with their ethanol gas, their wasteful solar panels, and their refusal to get control over their own waste while they dare to dictate to others. The world would be better off without any of those outrageous hypocrites. The term "Environmentalist" has become an insult thanks to their efforts.

Among these is Suzuki, a major leader of outrageous hypocrites. Rather than address his own wasteful consumption, he buys religious indulgences in the form of carbon credits to "offset" his waste. This is complete nonsense and those who participate in these scams are either deluded followers, or cult leaders trying to confuse their followers by example.

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