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The mutation that helps Delta spread

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Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#261

Post by dragontamer »

mynameishere wrote: post #206
jmfldn wrote: post #151

Purely anecdotal but I'm double vaccinated (Astra Zeneca) and I caught Covid recently. It was probably Delta as 99% of cases in UK are. I know of quite a few vaccinated friends who've caught it recently too. Mainly AZ I think but one was Pfizer (single jabbed). Anyway, none of us had severe illness although I felt pretty rough for a few days like I had a really bad cold and smell went for a week completely. I was bas…

a bit more A bit more until the virus decides to go away? Or a bit more until they invent a non-leaky vaccine? Or a bit more like when the cows come home? Because that's what you are talking about. A bit more forever.

Lets start with "Lets be precautious until hospitals stop triage of care". Maybe we should be precautious until hospitalization levels return to something looking like normal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/16/joel-valdez...

> Man shot 6 times waits more than a week for surgery after hospital is overwhelmed by covid

---------

When our hospitals are full, we should be cautious. When our hospitals empty out, we can open up a bit more. This obviously is location-dependent (and higher-vaccinated areas can afford to open up more).

But the absolute goal in every location is to keep hospitals functioning, and the relative stress levels of doctors / nurses at a reasonable level. I know in my state, we've been having to employ student nurses before they've graduated, so that there's enough staff around.

As long as hospitals feel the need for emergency measures, we need to be precautious and doing what we can to clamp down on the sickness.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#262

Post by tux1968 »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #77
hutzlibu wrote: post #61

I see the sentiment here expressed, that Covid is far from over. To be honest, I stopped following news since being fully vaccinated some time ago, so I am kind of ignorant here. Is the main problem, the unvaccinated, or that the Delta (and co.) variants are still, too dangerous for vaccinated people? Or is it the fear, that they will get more dangerous?

So here in Ontario where we're @ about 65% of the population totally vaccinated, today's new cases. Source: https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/covid-19-vaccine-data-in-ont... 10.25/100k among people who are unvaccinated. 6.5/100k among people who are partially vaccinated. 1.0/100k among people who are fully vaccinated. For hospitalization: 2.04/100k for unvaccinated, 1.11/100k for partially, 0.21/100k for vaccinated. Fo…

> The disease is spreading primarily among the unvaccinated.

What is the evidence for this? Vaccinated people are capable of spreading the disease just as easily as those who aren't. And since they're much more likely to be asymptomatic, may be more likely to spread the disease unknowingly.

Those without the vaccination are more likely to end up in hospital, but that says nothing about how the disease is actually being transmitted.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#263

Post by xienze »

schmichael wrote: post #89
hncurious wrote: post #70

Covid is going to be endemic like the flu and cold. It's not going to be eradicated, unfortunately, and I don't think we've come to terms with this yet. Now what's our plan exactly? Get vaccinated every 6 - 12 months indefinitely and always wear masks? What's our goal and what's our new normal?

I already get vaccinated every 12 months for the flu, so that seems like a fine plan to me.

Why get the flu vaccine anymore? If you believe official reports, it’s basically been eliminated by virtue of simple mask mandates that everyone swears no one is following.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#264

Post by tshaddox »

kriskrunch wrote: post #174
tshaddox wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I think the real problem with COVID is that it is a disease which kills many people and harms many more, not that some people supposedly vilify unvaccinated people.

Why not fight heart disease with this voracity, since it kills more people?

What fight, and what voracity?

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#265

Post by bonzini »

kriskrunch wrote: post #174
tshaddox wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I think the real problem with COVID is that it is a disease which kills many people and harms many more, not that some people supposedly vilify unvaccinated people.

Why not fight heart disease with this voracity, since it kills more people?

There's not a single heart disease, and a lot of cardiovascular issues are caused by bad habits rather than infectious pathogens.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#266

Post by civilized »

criticaltinker wrote: post #253
belter wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing your experience. >"... Of course the thing to emphasise is that, whilst it might break through, the vaccine still stops serious illness to a high degree...." Important to note, vaccines do not protect you, its the immune response they trigger and the level of antibodies that will protect you. What really should be happening should be a mass vaccination program and a mass antibodies level testing pr…

> What really should be happening should be a mass vaccination program Compulsory mass vaccination using the current vaccines poses a serious public health risk [1][2][3]. See my other comments here for more explanation and citations. For these reasons, vaccination strategies should be highly targeted towards vulnerable populations, and should be heavily supplemented by additional therapeutic modalities. > and a mass…

> Compulsory mass vaccination using the current vaccines poses a serious public health risk [1][2][3]

None of your references say this or anything remotely implying this. Backing up a provocative claim with a snowblind of irrelevant references is a shameful misinformation tactic and you should stop doing it immediately. Doing it in a public health context is particularly dangerous and frankly disgusting.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#267

Post by jmfldn »

tommymachine wrote: post #245
jmfldn wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's anecdotal not proof and in no way scientific my self assessment. I've just noticed a trend amongst friends recently.

The criticism I made wasn't about the anecdotal nature of your post, but the lack of logic in the conclusions you drew from it. It's amazing how people of your persuasion must avoid at all cost viewing their own thinking from a logical framework.

The point in my sharing this as 'anecdotal' is that this is my subjective view, and that from where I sit, these conclusions might follow but the correlation might be coincidental too. I.e maybe I avoided serious illness for some other reason; maybe I have no antibodies and the vaccine didn't trigger a response in me but I'm one of many who had it mildly. There are any number of other possible explanations. I'm not making any scientific logically bullet proof statements here, I'm speaking as an armchair pundit thinking "hmm, seems like a lot of vaccinated people I know have the virus all of a sudden. Seems like vaccines might be helping with the severity of the illness, maybe I was one of them. However, I wonder if all this means we should exercise just a bit more caution until we're sure this high infection rate isn't a problem in the overall fight we're engaged in".

The actual hard logic and policy I'll leave to the scientists and policy makers but, in the UK, at least the latter have a chequered history.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#268

Post by walterbell »

sreque wrote: post #232
rescripting wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A recent study showed having had COVID before offers less protection from reinfection than the vaccine [0]. "The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. The findings suggest that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated p…

This article completely destroy the CDC's report: https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/08/more-voodoo-e... . The CDC's report is a fantastic example as to why the CDC don't deserve our trust. They are dishonest. They cherry pick data to fit their narrative. They are unburdened by the constraints of peer review. They admit in their own study that it can't apply causation and yet they remain silent as the media…

https://arieh.substack.com/p/inside-israels-delta-outbreak-p...

> it looks like recovered people — people who had tested positive for the coronavirus in a past PCR test — are massively under-represented. Recovered people are around 9% of Israel’s population, but they’re less than 1% of current cases.

> That has led to speculation that recovery from past Covid is more protective against infection from the Delta Variant than vaccination. Known recovered people in Israel are mostly not vaccinated, though some chose to get a single booster dose ... From data I was passed last week, recovered people were testing at only 0.1% positivity, compared to more than 1% for vaccinated people.

> I wouldn’t be surprised if natural infection turned out to be more protective against variants than spike protein vaccination. It makes sense that the body’s immune system would find more ways to attack the whole pathogen and would recognise different parts of it compared to the changing spike in variants.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#269

Post by technothrasher »

tommymachine wrote: post #245
jmfldn wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's anecdotal not proof and in no way scientific my self assessment. I've just noticed a trend amongst friends recently.

The criticism I made wasn't about the anecdotal nature of your post, but the lack of logic in the conclusions you drew from it. It's amazing how people of your persuasion must avoid at all cost viewing their own thinking from a logical framework.

You invoke "you people" and then draw an unfounded and non-sequitur conclusion about your interlocutor's motivation while asking them to think with a logical framework???

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#270

Post by walterbell »

eecc wrote: post #249
criticaltinker wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, I'm sorry you had to suffer like that - and I don't want anyone to be denied healthcare. > I’d rather vaccinate and mask up then be denied healthcare You've presented a false dichotomy here - mass vaccination and masking will not necessarily prevent overwhelmed hospitals. Israel is a prime example - with one of the highest vaccination rates in the world - their hospitals are being overwhelmed right now due…

Only 66% of Israelis are fully vaccinated: there's a good 3 million hard-core religious orthodox who won't let science interfere with their deity's will. 3 million of blissfully and deliberately ignorant individuals who won't adapt their social behavior to avoid viral spread is more than enough to overrun any health system.

How many of those were infected and recovered in the last 18 months?
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