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The mutation that helps Delta spread

nature.com

201–210 of 641 posts

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#201

I see the sentiment here expressed, that Covid is far from over. To be honest, I stopped following news since being fully vaccinated some time ago, so I am kind of ignorant here. Is the main problem, the unvaccinated, or that the Delta (and co.) variants are still, too dangerous for vaccinated people? Or is it the fear, that they will get more dangerous?

This is the best article I've recently read that describes what is currently going on: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/08/delta-has... (Pulitzer Prize winner for science communication)

Thanks for the link! Lots of interesting details in there. I'll attempt a TL;DR of points most relevant for non-Americans (but please check the article for context, particularly on numbers, and link to sources):

- Delta variant has ridiculously high R₀ - estimated to be between 5 and 9, where initial COVID-19 variants had it around 2 to 3.

- Viruses spread nonuniformly. Old COVID-19 (R₀ = 2-3) tended to spread through super-spreading events (few people infecting a lot more at a time). R₀ of 5-9 implies Delta variant doesn't need super-spreading events.

- This R₀ value also means it's not possible to eradicate the virus through vaccination or herd immunity - it's going to become endemic (which was always seen as a likely outcome anyway).

- Current vaccines have proven to be effective against the Delta variant, by significantly reducing infections (0.01% to 0.29% chance of breakthrough disease), such infections showing symptoms (~88% percent effective) and severity of those symptoms if they show up, as well as preventing hospitalization (~96% effective against Delta; >95% of all COVID patients in US hospitals are unvaccinated).

- There is evidence that vaccinated people can still transmit Delta, even if themselves they don't show symptoms. As expected, the virus seems to live shorter in the airways of vaccinated people.

- Above and high R₀ mean Delta can spread even through highly-vaccinated communities.

- Individually, for those who can get a shot, it's the best thing to do. Community-wise, we still need other precautions - like mask, widespread testing, hygiene, improvements in ventilation, to protect the vulnerable and slow the spread.

- Vulnerable groups now include children under 12 - they're not eligible for vaccination, and there's a growing (though still small) amount of children suffering from long-COVID and MIS-C.

- The end goal is still to slow the spread, to keep schools open and hospitals running, prevent healthcare personnel burnout, give time to develop better countermeasures and therapies, and let the economy slowly recover (instead of repeating 2020). Slowing the spread down also gives the virus less chances of mutating into a more problematic variant.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due to COVID not mutating as quickly, I think the end game is everyone getting immune, through a combination of repeated vaccinations and infections.

What evidence do we have that covid "doesn't mutate as quickly"? There have been at least 3 distinct variants, separate from the original strain, since the virus was detected in late 2019 / early 2020.

These variants have their most severe symptoms blocked by the same vaccine with very similar effectiveness. Influenza viruses, on the other hand, undergo recombination in such a way that the vaccine has to be engineered every year based on guesses of what the prevalent strain is going to be.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#203
post #151

Purely anecdotal but I'm double vaccinated (Astra Zeneca) and I caught Covid recently. It was probably Delta as 99% of cases in UK are. I know of quite a few vaccinated friends who've caught it recently too. Mainly AZ I think but one was Pfizer (single jabbed). Anyway, none of us had severe illness although I felt pretty rough for a few days like I had a really bad cold and smell went for a week completely. I was bas…

> it does seem like this virus is bucking the trend and not necessarily becoming less potent despite increased tranmissability in some variants

I would think causing more severe symptoms is a disadvantage for a Covid strain in terms of selection, because people affected by such an illness are more likely to go into quarantine or a hospital, reducing transmission.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#204
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen an evidence that supplements would prevent the majority of severe cases, or the neurological damage done (in even mild cases). Is this something backed up by data?

Health goes beyond taking nutrients (although they might help). Here we're talking about exercise, nutrition, mental health etc: - None of those were advocated by governments during this pandemic. - Some measures (lockdowns, etc.) were detrimental to individual health and (imo) contributed to complications we've been seeing. This is generally backed up by common sense (which - just like the flu - has mysteriously dis…

What's mysterious about the flu disappearing? The precautions taken to reduce COVID were extremely effective against influenza. Given that it was much more broadly circulating, and therefore a large percentage of the population had antibodies to dominant strains (more than COVID even now), one would expect masks and isolation to basically destroy it's spread no?

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#205

Covid is going to be endemic like the flu and cold. It's not going to be eradicated, unfortunately, and I don't think we've come to terms with this yet. Now what's our plan exactly? Get vaccinated every 6 - 12 months indefinitely and always wear masks? What's our goal and what's our new normal?

Slightly off-topic: shouldn't the 'new normal' be to wear N95/N99 masks?

We know they're far more effective, and there's been plenty of time to ramp up production. I don't see why the 'normal' option is to wear a non-medical mask.

It's also surprising that societies are entirely incapable of doing a hard lockdown for 3 weeks with mandatory testing at the end. I imagine that would be enough to reduce the case count to near zero, but it seems this cannot be done at a national scale even with time to prepare.

edit Turns out I'm not alone here, here's a Harvard professor pushing for mass use of N95 masks: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/26/n95-masks...

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#206
post #151

Purely anecdotal but I'm double vaccinated (Astra Zeneca) and I caught Covid recently. It was probably Delta as 99% of cases in UK are. I know of quite a few vaccinated friends who've caught it recently too. Mainly AZ I think but one was Pfizer (single jabbed). Anyway, none of us had severe illness although I felt pretty rough for a few days like I had a really bad cold and smell went for a week completely. I was bas…

a bit more

A bit more until the virus decides to go away? Or a bit more until they invent a non-leaky vaccine? Or a bit more like when the cows come home? Because that's what you are talking about. A bit more forever.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#207

Covid is going to be endemic like the flu and cold. It's not going to be eradicated, unfortunately, and I don't think we've come to terms with this yet. Now what's our plan exactly? Get vaccinated every 6 - 12 months indefinitely and always wear masks? What's our goal and what's our new normal?

Slightly off-topic: shouldn't the 'new normal' be to wear N95/N99 masks? We know they're far more effective, and there's been plenty of time to ramp up production. I don't see why the 'normal' option is to wear a non-medical mask. It's also surprising that societies are entirely incapable of doing a hard lockdown for 3 weeks with mandatory testing at the end. I imagine that would be enough to reduce the case count to…

Just asking: would they also be effective in a slightly clueless general public? Eg they only work when they are in your face, fitted, etc.

It could be that cost/actual benefit looks worse when you factor poor usage.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#208
post #151

Purely anecdotal but I'm double vaccinated (Astra Zeneca) and I caught Covid recently. It was probably Delta as 99% of cases in UK are. I know of quite a few vaccinated friends who've caught it recently too. Mainly AZ I think but one was Pfizer (single jabbed). Anyway, none of us had severe illness although I felt pretty rough for a few days like I had a really bad cold and smell went for a week completely. I was bas…

Note that it appears that it is still unknown how likely breakthrough infections are to result in long Covid. The very limited data that does exist indicates that the likelyhood is rather high (~20%). https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/well/live/vaccine-long-co...

Long Covid has the same symptoms as stress, anxiety and depression, which are to be expected after contracting a pandemic level virus and being forced to isolate. Is there any proof yet that it is any more than that?

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, as long as COVID-19 fills up hospitals we should do this. Not having hospitals seriously compromises quality of life. I had untreated kidney stones for about a week at the peak of the pandemic. When I was in the middle of an attack I could not work, the pain was too severe. I was missing several hours of work everyday just dealing with pain. I finally got to the emergency room which did basic imaging and gave m…

> Not having hospitals seriously compromises quality of life. A non-trivial percentage of healthcare workers were infected in 2020 and recovered with natural immunity to Covid. Some of those feel strongly enough about vaccine mandates that they are prepared to move jurisdictions or retire, which would exacerbate existing staffing shortages in some hospitals. If we don't want more hospital shortages, we should reconsi…

A recent study showed having had COVID before offers less protection from reinfection than the vaccine [0].

"The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. The findings suggest that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated provides additional protection against reinfection."

[0] https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr...

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that it appears that it is still unknown how likely breakthrough infections are to result in long Covid. The very limited data that does exist indicates that the likelyhood is rather high (~20%). https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/well/live/vaccine-long-co...

Long Covid has the same symptoms as stress, anxiety and depression, which are to be expected after contracting a pandemic level virus and being forced to isolate. Is there any proof yet that it is any more than that?

Stress, anxiety and depression don't show up as lung damage on MRI scans.
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