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Ask HN: Should it be legal to switch privacy policies after purchase?

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Re: Ask HN: Should it be legal to switch privacy policies after purchase?

#61

Post by cosmotic »

notrealpersonq wrote: post #46
neltnerb wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a TV that wishes it were smart. I just refused to accept the ToS upon turning it on, never connected it to the wifi, and use an HDMI cable instead. To this day if I accidentally click the wrong input button it asks me to accept the ToS. But since I haven't and won't accept them at least that's something. Though I think it should be extremely illegal to change the terms of service for an appliance. Software mayb…

This is the heart of the question. My return period is long past. And it's a pretty expensive device. In my mind: I purchased the washer/dryer with these specific features in mind. Now I no longer have access to what I bought and I'm being locked out of using these features unless I accept the new terms.

Their official return window may have passed, but that doesn't mean you can't return now that they have changed the terms of the sale.

Re: Ask HN: Should it be legal to switch privacy policies after purchase?

#62

Post by neltnerb »

mnw21cam wrote: post #47
neltnerb wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a TV that wishes it were smart. I just refused to accept the ToS upon turning it on, never connected it to the wifi, and use an HDMI cable instead. To this day if I accidentally click the wrong input button it asks me to accept the ToS. But since I haven't and won't accept them at least that's something. Though I think it should be extremely illegal to change the terms of service for an appliance. Software mayb…

Nonsense. Sale of goods act 1979, and the consumer rights act 2015. If the terms of service are acceptable to you at the time you buy, but then they are changed to be unacceptable, then the device is not fit for purpose by design , and you can claim a full refund. There is no set time limit on this. Take them to the small claims court if they refuse.

... have you ever tried to actually do this?

On top of having to deal with, at minimum, going out and buying a new washer drier on my own dime until I win said court case, there's no guarantee you'd win (it's the app ToS, not literally the appliance, correct?) nor that it would ever compensate for your time spent dealing with it.

Sure, you might have a good case, but when you're working full time and have a family this is not a good use of your time. It requires a level of committment that I shouldn't have to have in order to fix a unilateral change to the terms I agree to when actually making a literally $2k+ purchase. I can't just float them a loan for $2k to buy replacement equipment while suing them.

Re: Ask HN: Should it be legal to switch privacy policies after purchase?

#63

Post by gnulinux »

stackbutterflow wrote: post #22
belval wrote: post #4

I think we are at a point where legislation will be needed and there should be a clear list of what kind of data will be collected by the device throughout this lifespan akin to nutrition facts for food. That list should not be possible to alter at all (because otherwise they would lock the app lest you approve the new requirements). Something like: This device will share: - Age - Gender - Voice commands - Wifi name…

Technology moves faster than law. I agree that we need to do something about it. It's getting ridiculous.

It's way past the point it's ridiculous. It's starting to get dangerous, and if we don't take action now, this is going to be a systemic problem, not unlike ethnic/racial biases in justice systems throughout the world.

Re: Ask HN: Should it be legal to switch privacy policies after purchase?

#64

Post by 41209 »

foxyv wrote: post #53
41209 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also just not connect it to the internet.

That is my current strategy. However, don't be surprised if dark patterns start to appear like error messages, warnings, reduced functionality, and outright failure. Sometimes our TV will do pop-ups about needing to update while using the Roku. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ad-Supported appliances that fail after too long without internet. Also, be aware that repairing a purely electrical appliance is fairly simple…

> Also, be aware that repairing a purely electrical appliance is fairly simple for most small appliance repair businesses. However smart appliances can be setup to only allow "Authorized" repairs. I've seen this for some electric bikes like Bosch bottom bracket motors where you need specific USB keys to work on or modify them that are VERY expensive.

This is an entirely different issue. Even if it's a dumb tv, the manufacturer will probably not prioritize repairability.

I'm guilty of treating most items as disposable, I assume whenever my $300 TV blows out I'll just need to walk on down to Best Buy and buy a new one.

Re: Ask HN: Should it be legal to switch privacy policies after purchase?

#65

Post by auxym »

notrealpersonq wrote: post #12
kodah wrote: post #9

1GB of data per day? That's incredible. Have you tried to inspect the data? I'm curious to know what a washer and dryer could possibly send home per day to total that. If what you're saying is true, it smells like you're getting spied on.

It definitely is 1GB per day. Any insight/links on how I can do that? I'll admit I have no idea where to begin when it comes to this.

In Canada that would be outrageous. Many lower cost internet plans here are limited to 30-50gb per month.

If my washer started using 1 gb per day without notice, and I received a bill for extra data, I woukd be pissed.

I do own an LG washer, but thabkfully a lower end model without internet connectivity.

Re: Ask HN: Should it be legal to switch privacy policies after purchase?

#66

Post by LinuxBender »

41209 wrote: post #41
foxyv wrote: post #11

I don't regret sticking to dumb appliances. I hate Smart TVs with a passion, but they are all you can get nowadays. But I can just throw the TV out the window if it stops working when I unplug it and continue living just fine. Not so much with my washer, dryer, stove, car and fridge/freezer. I do not look forward to the day you CAN'T buy a non-smart appliance like a fridge or water heater.

You can also just not connect it to the internet.

That will be harder in the near future. There are already youtubers showing the dozens of methods devices are using to talk to one another out of band and without user interaction. This guy covers some of the methods in a few of his videos [1].

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/c/BraxMe/videos [video list]

Re: Ask HN: Should it be legal to switch privacy policies after purchase?

#67

Post by LinuxBender »

kodah wrote: post #9

1GB of data per day? That's incredible. Have you tried to inspect the data? I'm curious to know what a washer and dryer could possibly send home per day to total that. If what you're saying is true, it smells like you're getting spied on.

It will likely be encrypted. If they are lucky, then the vendor won't validate certs and you could MITM with a proxy. Super simple with Charles or Squid, but this assumes the device doesn't validate certs. Some IoT don't.

Re: Ask HN: Should it be legal to switch privacy policies after purchase?

#68

Post by LinuxBender »

I don't have the answer to your legal question, but if your router supports it, you might consider putting rate limits on the machines IP so they are slowed to a crawl. Maybe 10kb/s. Enough to make it think it is working but not enough to upload all the things. This assumes your appliance will still work as designed when their spooler/buffer is full. Or another trick is to drop any packets above 600 bytes. Most API calls will work but data transfers won't unless their device is clever.

Re: Ask HN: Should it be legal to switch privacy policies after purchase?

#69

Post by ipaddr »

mschild wrote: post #29
jen20 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m in the market for a TV currently, and have found (in the US) that it doesn’t matter how much extra I’d be willing to pay for a dumb TV, there just aren’t any beyond super low-end ones. Any pointers to some would be much appreciated!

Besides going with the common low-budget brands, like Sceptre, you might find some dumb commercial TVs. However, commercial TVs leave a lot to be desired. They generally put the focus on other aspect, like higher brightness, instead of color accuracy because they are intended to be used as signage. Hotel TVs tend to have hidden and hard to navigate sub-menus so guests dont mess with the settings too much. Realistical…

I don't think a google tv is the best way forward in terms of privacy.

Re: Ask HN: Should it be legal to switch privacy policies after purchase?

#70

Post by ipaddr »

buu700 wrote: post #48
dvdhnt wrote: post #3

Wow. I do not believe changes to terms after purchase should be allowed unless required by law. We need a lemon-like law for consumer electronics. Also, I believe it is important to not buy connected devices and appliances that are not entertainment purposes only. I’d rather pay $200 extra for a dumb tv that will last be 10 years and guaranteed to not start showing me ads in the menu screen someday.

We need a lemon-like law for consumer electronics. I wonder how this should apply to planned obsolescence of devices like smartphones. On one hand, it's obscene that manufacturers expect us to routinely spend ~$1k on a device that will in the best case scenario last for three years. There's no inherent reason that a flagship Samsung from 2017 shouldn't be perfectly serviceable today, and likewise for a Pixel 6 or iPh…

Your phone still works fine. Those security patches not being installed means probably very little.
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