Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged • Hacker News Board

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#71

Post by thehotdon » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:26 AM UTC

teej wrote: post #29

maukdaddy wrote: post #9

There is nothing more evil in modern business than marketers. Between real life experience and MBA classes I have come to despise most everything involved in modern marketing, especially in the technology space.

Give me a break. This isn't evil marketers hiding in their underground lair. This is web developers, designers, and product managers gaining insight about their users. They don't package this information and sell it wholesale to advertisers. They use it to make the product better . You are taking this -way- too seriously. The ability to have perfect information on how users interact with your product is one the earth…

Marketers do nothing to "make the product better".

They pump exorbitant amounts of money into advertising, thereby increasing the final price paid by customers without increasing product quality. Furthermore, they use these advertisements to inflate their customers' perceived value of the products, once again, without actually increasing product quality.

Marketers maximize profits, not quality.

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#72

Post by bandushrew » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:28 AM UTC

jscheel wrote: post #38

Jeez guys, not all tracking is evil. You know all that awesome content that exists on the web? Well the people that make and distribute that content need information to make your experience better. Let's say you start a new site. Let's use 8tracks for example: they provide a two-tiered service, one free and premium. The free service exists to drive you to a paid account, but you still derive value from it, nonetheles…

that is very cool. The important thing about the system is that it is a matter of personal choice, right? I can choose not to participate, right?

because they ask my permission, dont they? I mean, I can choose between not seeing their contact or being tracked - yes?

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#73

Post by losvedir » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:30 AM UTC

I generally browse with Javascript, cookies, and plug-ins off (except for a few whitelisted sites). From what I understand of the technology (it loads some javascripts initially), I think that would dodge it.

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#74

Post by potatolicious » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:30 AM UTC

k33n wrote: post #55

I've worked with the KM folks. Great people, genuinely kind, and they want to make a great product. I think it's disgusting to single out a startup like this, especially right as they are gaining traction with some big-name clients. There is value in what they are doing, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. They are tracking user behavior completely anonymously.

Road to hell is paved with good intentions, etc etc.

I'm not going to make any moral judgments about their team since I don't know any of them. Even if they are on the up and up and mean the best, IMO the technology they are employing is illegitimate at best - it violates user expectations when using the internet, and IMO makes the industry more dangerous for the rest of us by giving legislators and luddites more ammunition. I am absolutely against supercookies.

I'm not sure why it's relevant that they're tracking users anonymously - the user gets to decide at the end of the day who they share their information with. To make this decision for them is presumptuous, to force them to comply despite their implied non-consent is the height of arrogance.

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#75

Post by fractalcat » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:34 AM UTC

Title is misleading. I routinely 'dodge' this - all it takes is disabling caching. If you understand how caching works, it's trivial to conclude that it's possible to use etags for tracking. It's the same with the CSS-based browser history attack - if your browser is storing data, and it's possible for a server to tell you're storing it, it can be used to track you.

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#76

Post by joe_the_user » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:38 AM UTC

k33n wrote: post #55

I've worked with the KM folks. Great people, genuinely kind, and they want to make a great product. I think it's disgusting to single out a startup like this, especially right as they are gaining traction with some big-name clients. There is value in what they are doing, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. They are tracking user behavior completely anonymously.

I'll leave discussion about valid of KM's activity aside, what is it about the "I know X, genuinely great people and really want to do good stuff" formula (with no substantive arguments) that seems to make to the top of these hn debates? (I'm sure the KM people love puppy dogs, etc).

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#77

Post by rubeng » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:41 AM UTC

kevinchen wrote: post #65

k33n wrote: post #55

I've worked with the KM folks. Great people, genuinely kind, and they want to make a great product. I think it's disgusting to single out a startup like this, especially right as they are gaining traction with some big-name clients. There is value in what they are doing, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. They are tracking user behavior completely anonymously.

Of course there's value in what they're doing — to advertisers. As a user, I am not 100% comfortable with any tracking service, supercookie-based or otherwise. [Edit: Made the wording clearer]

KISSmetrics specializes in funnel analytics, not helping advertisers. I'm surprised by the number of people making that assumption.

I have a SaaS app and I use KISSmetrics to learn what sorts of things engage visitors and customers the most. It's helped me make critical decisions that benefit both me and my customers (by improving multi-step processes).

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#78

Post by vl » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:43 AM UTC

Ironically, they would never be caught if only they assigned different blobs to the same user on different properties, like KS_cookie XOR hash(property_name).

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#79

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:47 AM UTC

kevinchen wrote: post #65

k33n wrote: post #55

I've worked with the KM folks. Great people, genuinely kind, and they want to make a great product. I think it's disgusting to single out a startup like this, especially right as they are gaining traction with some big-name clients. There is value in what they are doing, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. They are tracking user behavior completely anonymously.

Of course there's value in what they're doing — to advertisers. As a user, I am not 100% comfortable with any tracking service, supercookie-based or otherwise. [Edit: Made the wording clearer]

[deleted]

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#80

Post by driverdan » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 4:50 AM UTC

losvedir wrote: post #73

I generally browse with Javascript, cookies, and plug-ins off (except for a few whitelisted sites). From what I understand of the technology (it loads some javascripts initially), I think that would dodge it.

What's it like living in 1994?