Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Performance Improvements in .NET 6

devblogs.microsoft.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 256 posts

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#71

Post by jcelerier »

tomnipotent wrote: post #56
addicted wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UI story on Windows is completely broken but that has been the case forever. Has MS basically released anything sustainable on the UI side since MFC? It feels like they’ve constantly provided a new new replacement every few years that replaced the new replacement from a few years ago since then.

Is there a UI story that doesn't suck?

I'm mostly doing my UIs in Qt and I'm always happy, sure it's not perfect but it consistently allows me to do what I want in a cross-platform way with minimal effort (especially when I compare with the royal empirical pain that is webdev)

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#72

Post by Hawxy »

zvrba wrote: post #59
robertwt7 wrote: post #38

and we're stuck with Java. Sad, I hope that bigger companies and startups choose to use .NET for the future. I love it but can't it seems like 80% of the big tech companies here are using java

I like the uniformity of Java language. I like the "inner class" feature that has to be manually emulated in C#. I also like that I can implement anonymous abstract class-interface ad hoc in Java. I wish that internal visibility in C# was tied to a namespace instead of assembly, like package visibility in Java. Method co-/contravariance in C# is tied to interfaces. I prefer it tied to individual methods, like in Java…

> An often-asked question is how to synchronously wait on an async method. The usual answer is "don't do it" like it solves anything. But async methods return a Task and the official examples for tasks tell you explicitly to use Wait() method to wait on a task.

This is mostly the fault of the TPL documentation being written eons ago. I'd recommend David Fowler's async guidance for a modern take: https://github.com/davidfowl/AspNetCoreDiagnosticScenarios/b...

`.GetAwaiter().GetResult()` is generally considered the best way to do it if you must do sync over async, but in modern code it should almost never be required.

> I tried to convert a project to NRTs and gave up, reverted everything. I haven't seen a NRE in years :p NRTs introduce a lot of edge cases, with a lot of syntactic noise to cover them and still guarantees nothing (unlike a proper Optional type would).

I've been working on updating a number of libraries to support NRTs with success. I find it's a good for developer ergonomics so you know what can return/be null and what cannot without needing it laid out within xml comments or documentation. ASP.NET Core 5+ will also automatically validate request payloads depending on a type being nullable or not. NRTs will be enabled in project templates by default with .NET 6.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#73

Post by whoknowswhat11 »

foepys wrote: post #39

WinForms and its Visual Studio designer are still broken, WPF is still riddled with bugs and was declared obsolete in ~2017 in favor of UWP, UWP is marked obsolete in favor of WinUI, and WinUI's OSS release was postponed just two days ago because it's not ready. Microsoft is marketing .NET 6 as the replacement for .NET Framework but you still cannot properly do desktop UI with it. I honestly don't understand why they…

Couldn't agree more. Microsoft lost their minds on the UI / desktop app side - which was a core strength (historically).

WinForms was fine / great / amazing. 90% of business / line apps could be handled with it. I have no idea how / why it's taken them so long and they STILL have not gotten their replacement story straight for it and they regressed the designer in .NET.

Did they just lose their minds there? Hire a bunch of idiots caught up in fads instead of folks who've been around for a bit.

It honestly is mind blowing. By now they could have had a cross platform WinForms story or something. The new WinForms designer is so annoying at times. "Oh, we support winforms" - no you don't.

And pretty much the stuff after it has been garbage.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#74

Post by whoknowswhat11 »

jcelerier wrote: post #71
tomnipotent wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a UI story that doesn't suck?

I'm mostly doing my UIs in Qt and I'm always happy, sure it's not perfect but it consistently allows me to do what I want in a cross-platform way with minimal effort (especially when I compare with the royal empirical pain that is webdev)

For windows what's your hello world workflow / stack. I've wanted to get into QT, but there seem to be a bunch of different flavors out there. I'm more a winforms guy then an HTML/XAML/CSS type person.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#75

Post by girvo »

eitland wrote: post #30
3np wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m thorn on that. As someone who has had intermittent periods of .NET, it’s a complete mess every time I’ve come back after a couple of years off and figuring out what new APIs are the new thing to use, which have been deprecated and when looking for a solution of something involving e.g. configuring stuff in the web server request handing stack it’s a real confusing mess. Docs of course aren’t all up to date and ar…

> It’s way worse than React in this regard (if not only by its sheer size and larger scope) FWIW, I've used React for 18 months now. Except Java and classic core PHP it is one of the most stable platforms I've developed on. So, in my view being less stable than React isn't a big problem.

React itself is incredibly stable, for sure, but its third party dependencies (core libraries most use) are a little less so

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#76

Post by ygra »

foepys wrote: post #48
addicted wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UI story on Windows is completely broken but that has been the case forever. Has MS basically released anything sustainable on the UI side since MFC? It feels like they’ve constantly provided a new new replacement every few years that replaced the new replacement from a few years ago since then.

That's definitely true but they did a good job supporting their tech once it was released. My company has been using WinForms on .NET Framework for over 10 years now and it's working really, really well. Microsoft even added HiDPI support to it. When Microsoft announced they wanted to bring WinForms to .NET Core 3, we were initially very happy as it meant we could switch to .NET Core. But then they did all kinds of s…

They had to rewrite the designer for .NET Core since the designer runs your own controls' code right during design time (pretty horrifying on one end, but also enables a fairly integrated experience with custom controls). Since Visual Studio is based on .NET Framework the designer had to move out of process, as the only alternative would have been no designer at all.

So that's a twenty-year old codebase, perhaps on both ends (Windows Forms Designer and Visual Studio alike) that now somehow has to be moved to different processes and different runtimes.

Perhaps you have more luck with JetBrains Rider, although from what I've seen they simply host the very same designer in pretty much the same way as Visual Studio and thus are unlikely to fare any better here.

The other option is the still-recommended workaround of keeping the .NET Framework project files around and do designer stuff with those. Also annoying, admittedly, but that's what I've been doing for now (well, for other reasons as well, as we sell a .NET UI component that still has to work in .NET Framework as well).

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#77

Post by stevefan1999 »

vp8989 wrote: post #5

Making JIT 4% (or whatever) faster is cool but it would probably have higher ROI for the .NET ecosystem if Microsoft assigned some of these high caliber people to instead work on improving or simply rewriting some of the atrocious open source libraries that are available. Would you rather have an A language/runtime with a D open source ecosystem or a B for both?

This is not a MS project, but this thing called Hot Chocolate here (https://github.com/ChilliCream/hotchocolate) is very incredible. It is the best GraphQL framework I've worked on with excellent /EF(core)?/ support (even better than that of Hasura and dgraph) on the .NET ecosystem and overall software engineering. Maybe I can even swap the data source out with MongoDB as well, since it actually accepts IQueryable as the resolver source.

.NET is so incredibly underrated...

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#78

Post by jussij »

addicted wrote: post #43
foepys wrote: post #39

WinForms and its Visual Studio designer are still broken, WPF is still riddled with bugs and was declared obsolete in ~2017 in favor of UWP, UWP is marked obsolete in favor of WinUI, and WinUI's OSS release was postponed just two days ago because it's not ready. Microsoft is marketing .NET 6 as the replacement for .NET Framework but you still cannot properly do desktop UI with it. I honestly don't understand why they…

The UI story on Windows is completely broken but that has been the case forever. Has MS basically released anything sustainable on the UI side since MFC? It feels like they’ve constantly provided a new new replacement every few years that replaced the new replacement from a few years ago since then.

> Has MS basically released anything sustainable on the UI side since MFC?

MFC is nothing more that a C++ GUI library wrapping the Windows Win32 GUI layer.

The problem with that Win32 GUI is it has not changed for several decades, which is why any application using that Windows GUI layer looks old and outdated on modern Windows.

Since Microsoft is not updating the Win32 GUI layer, it is basically obsolete.

However so many Windows applications still use that GUI layer and that then makes the Windows UI a complete mess.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#79

Post by mattmanser »

foepys wrote: post #48
addicted wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UI story on Windows is completely broken but that has been the case forever. Has MS basically released anything sustainable on the UI side since MFC? It feels like they’ve constantly provided a new new replacement every few years that replaced the new replacement from a few years ago since then.

That's definitely true but they did a good job supporting their tech once it was released. My company has been using WinForms on .NET Framework for over 10 years now and it's working really, really well. Microsoft even added HiDPI support to it. When Microsoft announced they wanted to bring WinForms to .NET Core 3, we were initially very happy as it meant we could switch to .NET Core. But then they did all kinds of s…

No they didn't.

Take a look at what happened to silverlight or UWP.

You just happen to be working in the one tech they actually carried on supporting.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#80

Post by simondotau »

tomnipotent wrote: post #56
addicted wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UI story on Windows is completely broken but that has been the case forever. Has MS basically released anything sustainable on the UI side since MFC? It feels like they’ve constantly provided a new new replacement every few years that replaced the new replacement from a few years ago since then.

Is there a UI story that doesn't suck?

The command line. (Hey, you said UI, not GUI.)

Or for all its faults on macOS, SwiftUI on the iPhone is pretty good.

And depending on your angle of view, depending on the kinds of UI you're attempting to make, you could argue that the UI story of HTML5 is able to not suck if you have the self-discipline to avoid the sucky things.

Post reply on HN