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ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

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Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#391

Post by 0x0 »

mrtranscendence wrote: post #179
saithound wrote: post #163

Keep in mind that Apple's claimed false positive rate (one in a trillion chance of an account being flagged innocently), and the collision rate determined by Dwyer in the article, are both derived without any adversarial assumptions. Given that NeuralHash collider and similar tools already exist, the false positive rate is expected to be much much higher. Imagine that you play a game of craps against an online casino…

Why would anyone bother with such an attack? The end result is that some peon at Apple has to look at the images and mark them as not CSAM. You've cost someone a bit of privacy, but that's it.

Seeing how "well" app review works, I would not be surprised if the "peon" sometimes clicks the wrong button while reviewing, bringing down a world of hurt on some innocent apple user, all triggered by the embedded snitchware running on their local device.

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#392

Post by hnechochamber »

JunkDNA wrote: post #383
rsj_hn wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is going on is that reality is slapping some techno-utopians in the face and they are shocked, shocked, that governments are more powerful that businesses. That's not at all what the lefty geeks learned by reading Chomsky or what the righty geeks learned by reading Heinlein. All along these people thought algorithms and protocols (e.g. bitcoin and TCP/IP) would somehow be a powerful force that would cause govern…

Bingo. I wish I could upvote this comment more. All the geeks get distracted by words like “cloud” or “virtual” and forget that all this stuff we depend on has a physical presence at some point in the real world. That physical presence necessitates humans interacting with other humans. Humans interacting with humans falls squarely in the “things governments poke their noses into” bucket. It’s like the early days of N…

Dont worry, ill fix all this by creating a unique javascript framework that will change the world.

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#393

Post by snet0 »

SilasX wrote: post #308
dhosek wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, I'd argue that the collision rate per image pair is overestimating the collision rate. It's the flip side of the birthday paradox. We don't care that any two images have the same hash, we care about any image having the same hash as one in the set that we're testing against.

>We don't care that any two images have the same hash, Why not?

Based on the pigeonhole principle alone, it will always be the case that collisions exist. The size of the digest is very likely smaller than the size of any given image.

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#395

Post by incrudible »

csmpltn wrote: post #242
mrtranscendence wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone bother with such an attack? The end result is that some peon at Apple has to look at the images and mark them as not CSAM. You've cost someone a bit of privacy, but that's it.

> "The end result is that some peon at Apple has to look at the images and mark them as not CSAM. You've cost someone a bit of privacy, but that's it." This can be abused to spam Apple's manual review process, grinding it down to a halt. You've cost Apple time and money by making them review each such fake report.

> You've cost Apple time and money by making them review each such fake report.

Ok, but… how do I profit? If I wanted to waste Apple employee time, I could surely find a way to do it, but why would I? The functioning of society relies on the fact that people generally have better things to do than waste each others time.

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#396

Post by [deleted] »

c7DJTLrn wrote: post #322
captn3m0 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related, the Indian Government (Telecom Department) bullied Apple into building an iOS feature for reporting phone calls and SMS by threatening to stop iPhone sales in India. Apple complied. https://indianexpress.com/article/technology/mobile-tabs/app...

I'm so done. I'm sorry to dump a pointless rant like this on HN but... what the hell is going on these days? Nobody seriously seems to care about legitimate privacy concerns anymore. If I were in a position of power, like being CEO, CTO, or even just an engineer on the team at Apple that implemented this, I'd do EVERYTHING to make sure that my power is in check and that I'm not pushing a fundamentally harmful technol…

[deleted]

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#397

Post by tshaddox »

bsenftner wrote: post #378
tshaddox wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no, I don't think they have any way of force install updates, but that would also apply to this update to add CSAM hashing.

If your wifi is enabled and the phone is attached to power, apple updates without any request. I've been trying not to update my iPhone, but recently I left the wifi on when charging and it updated.

Yeah, it's not a practical way to use your iPhone. For all practical purposes, Apple has unrestricted ability to push updates to iPhones.

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#398

Post by ljm »

stickfigure wrote: post #19

> it's not obvious how we can trust that a rogue actor (like a foreign government) couldn't add non-CSAM hashes to the list to root out human rights advocates or political rivals. Apple has tried to mitigate this by requiring two countries to agree to add a file to the list, but the process for this seems opaque and ripe for abuse. If the CCP says "put these hashes in your database or we will halt all iPhone sales in…

> two countries

    1. USA

    2. UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand
Pick one from the first list, and one from the second list

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#399

Post by bitL »

c7DJTLrn wrote: post #322
captn3m0 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related, the Indian Government (Telecom Department) bullied Apple into building an iOS feature for reporting phone calls and SMS by threatening to stop iPhone sales in India. Apple complied. https://indianexpress.com/article/technology/mobile-tabs/app...

I'm so done. I'm sorry to dump a pointless rant like this on HN but... what the hell is going on these days? Nobody seriously seems to care about legitimate privacy concerns anymore. If I were in a position of power, like being CEO, CTO, or even just an engineer on the team at Apple that implemented this, I'd do EVERYTHING to make sure that my power is in check and that I'm not pushing a fundamentally harmful technol…

Buy Sony Xperia 10 ii, then buy an official SailfishOS package from shop.jolla.com and flash it over Android 11 - enjoy a polished mobile OS without snitches, which you fully control, a real pocket computer instead of a future pocket policeman.

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#400

Post by incrudible »

saithound wrote: post #343
ChrisKnott wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how these theoretical political memes hash-match to an image in the NCMEC database, and then also pass the visual check? > "No, this misses the point completely. You cannot easily trigger any automated systems merely by taking photos of 17.9 year olds and sending them to people." Did I say "taking"? I am talking about sending (theoretical) actual images from the NCMEC database. This is functionally id…

Yes, I can. This is just one possible strategy: there are many others, where different things are done, and where things are done in a different order. You use the collider [1] and one of the many scaling attacks ([2] [3] [4], just the ones linked in this thread) to create an image that matches the hash of a reasonably fresh CSAM image currently circulating on the Internet, and resizes to some legal sexual or violent…

This leaves open the question of how the image gets on the device of the victim. You would have to craft a very specific image that the victim is likely to save, and the existence of such a specially crafted file would completely exonerate them.
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