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ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions
301–310 of 530 posts
Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions
#302This is a false-positive rate of 2 in 2 trillion image pairs (1,431,168^2). Assuming the NCMEC database has more than 20,000 images, this represents a slightly higher rate than Apple had previously reported. But, assuming there are less than a million images in the dataset, it's probably in the right ballpark. If the author was comparing 2 trillion pictures of people, or children specifically, I think this false-posi…
The sample set is ImageNet, which is a well-known dataset in Computer Vision and is available for download here: https://www.kaggle.com/c/imagenet-object-localization-challe... I'd love to see this work extended; if you find additional collisions in the wild please submit a PR to the repo (please do not submit artificially generated adversarial images): https://github.com/roboflow-ai/neuralhash-collisions For what it…
Well to know for sure if that's lower we'd need to know the size of the NCMEC database. They're the same if the NCMEC contains around 10 000 images.
Though knowing that 1 in roughly 30 million images generates a false positive is the most important figure I suppose. Assuming 100 million iPhones with each 1000 pictures that would generate some 3000 phones with one or more false positives [1] and a roughly 5% chance that some phone has at least 2 false positives.
[1]: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28100+million%29+e%5E... [2]: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=+%281+-+e%5E-l+%28e%5E...
Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
Presumably Apple would be afraid that, say, the EU becomes suspicious, issues a court order to obtain the hashes, notices they cannot audit the CCP hashes, pointedly asks "what is this", becomes absolutely livid that their citizens are spied on by a country that is not them, fines Apple out the wazoo, then extradites whoever is responsible and puts them in prison. I mean, China's not the only player in this. Putting…
> citizens are spied on by a country that is not them I thought countries often have under the table agreements with one another to explicitly spy on each others citizens, since its illegal for the country to spy on its own citizens. It's illegal for the other country too, but it's a lot easier to turn a blind eye to it.
The EU is not spying on any of its citizen. If you think otherwise, please link to some sources. Otherwise these are baseless rumors.
These "everyone is doing it" statements are nonsense. Not everything is doing it.
Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the CCP says “put this arbitrary software into your next iPhone software update or we will halt all iPhone sales in China,” what do you think Apple is going to do? Isn’t the answer to both questions the same?
If they do one of those, it will be obvious it happened, because people can at least reverse engineer iOS and see that it’s different. If they add some new hashes I presume that would be harder to spot and isn’t going to be advertised
Software vulnerabilities can go undetected for years, why would this necessarily be any different?
Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the CCP says “put this arbitrary software into your next iPhone software update or we will halt all iPhone sales in China,” what do you think Apple is going to do? Isn’t the answer to both questions the same?
If they do one of those, it will be obvious it happened, because people can at least reverse engineer iOS and see that it’s different. If they add some new hashes I presume that would be harder to spot and isn’t going to be advertised
the hashes are also shipped with every device and can be inspected.
A few bytes changed in a binary blob that would enable a backdoor would be almost impossible to detect.
Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions
#306I am not exactly sure if this is how this works but it appears to me that all the hashes of your photos get uploaded to a server and was wondering if it is possible to reverse the hashes to be able to deduce what's in each photo hashed..
Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions
#307I am not exactly sure if this is how this works but it appears to me that all the hashes of your photos get uploaded to a server and was wondering if it is possible to reverse the hashes to be able to deduce what's in each photo hashed..
no and no
Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions
#308Earlier quoted context omitted.
>2 in 2 trillion image pairs Reporting the collision rate per image pair feels misleading. What you really want to know is the number of false positives per image in the relevant set, not image pair, as that's the figure that indicates how frequently you'll hit a false positive.
In fact, I'd argue that the collision rate per image pair is overestimating the collision rate. It's the flip side of the birthday paradox. We don't care that any two images have the same hash, we care about any image having the same hash as one in the set that we're testing against.
>We don't care that any two images have the same hash,
Why not?
Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions
#309There's been a lot of focus on the likelihood of collisions and whether someone could upload eg; an image with a matching hash to your device to "set you up", etc. But what's still extremely concerning is that there is still no guarantee that the hash list used can't be coopted for another purpose (eg; politically insensitive content).
The OP mentions that two countries have to agree to add a file to the list, but your concern is definitely valid: > Perhaps the most concerning part of the whole scheme is the database itself. Since the original images are (understandably) not available for inspection, it's not obvious how we can trust that a rogue actor (like a foreign government) couldn't add non-CSAM hashes to the list to root out human rights adv…
It's probably relatively trivial for the US or China to coerce another county to agree to an image.
Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions
#310> it's not obvious how we can trust that a rogue actor (like a foreign government) couldn't add non-CSAM hashes to the list to root out human rights advocates or political rivals. Apple has tried to mitigate this by requiring two countries to agree to add a file to the list, but the process for this seems opaque and ripe for abuse. If the CCP says "put these hashes in your database or we will halt all iPhone sales in…
If the CCP says “put this arbitrary software into your next iPhone software update or we will halt all iPhone sales in China,” what do you think Apple is going to do? Isn’t the answer to both questions the same?
What makes us think that that isn’t exactly what this is already?