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ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

blog.roboflow.com

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Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#11

Post by minitoar »

endisneigh wrote: post #8

It doesn’t matter if there are collisions if the two images don’t actually look the same. Do people honestly believe a single CSAM flag from an “innocent” image is going to result in someone going to prison in America? PhotoDNA has existed for over a decade doing the same thing with no instances that I have heard of. If some corrupt government wants to get you they don’t need this. They can just unilaterally say you’…

The damage is already done by the time it gets to the point of devices being confiscated.

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#12

Post by version_five »

cat199 wrote: post #7
alfalfasprout wrote: post #2

There's been a lot of focus on the likelihood of collisions and whether someone could upload eg; an image with a matching hash to your device to "set you up", etc. But what's still extremely concerning is that there is still no guarantee that the hash list used can't be coopted for another purpose (eg; politically insensitive content).

this also punts the debate to the checking process instead of the fact that there even is a process to start with..

Yes I was about to say the same thing. Hash collisions are an extra concern about what apple is doing, but even if they were as collision free as cryptographic hashes, that would not make the invasion of privacy OK. The technical discussion is something that apple can easily parry and is the wrong framing of this debate.

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#13

Post by bawolff »

endisneigh wrote: post #8

It doesn’t matter if there are collisions if the two images don’t actually look the same. Do people honestly believe a single CSAM flag from an “innocent” image is going to result in someone going to prison in America? PhotoDNA has existed for over a decade doing the same thing with no instances that I have heard of. If some corrupt government wants to get you they don’t need this. They can just unilaterally say you’…

If the two images looked the same, then the expected behaviour is a collision, so if collisions matter at all, it would only be for pictures that look different.

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#14

Post by endisneigh »

minitoar wrote: post #11
endisneigh wrote: post #8

It doesn’t matter if there are collisions if the two images don’t actually look the same. Do people honestly believe a single CSAM flag from an “innocent” image is going to result in someone going to prison in America? PhotoDNA has existed for over a decade doing the same thing with no instances that I have heard of. If some corrupt government wants to get you they don’t need this. They can just unilaterally say you’…

The damage is already done by the time it gets to the point of devices being confiscated.

Can you point to a single instance of that happening where it was due to a false positive?

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#15

Post by endisneigh »

bawolff wrote: post #13
endisneigh wrote: post #8

It doesn’t matter if there are collisions if the two images don’t actually look the same. Do people honestly believe a single CSAM flag from an “innocent” image is going to result in someone going to prison in America? PhotoDNA has existed for over a decade doing the same thing with no instances that I have heard of. If some corrupt government wants to get you they don’t need this. They can just unilaterally say you’…

If the two images looked the same, then the expected behaviour is a collision, so if collisions matter at all, it would only be for pictures that look different.

They don’t matter because if two images don’t look the same, but collide - then human processes will absolve you. This isn’t some AI that sends you straight to prison lol

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#16

Post by zbobet2012 »

endisneigh wrote: post #8

It doesn’t matter if there are collisions if the two images don’t actually look the same. Do people honestly believe a single CSAM flag from an “innocent” image is going to result in someone going to prison in America? PhotoDNA has existed for over a decade doing the same thing with no instances that I have heard of. If some corrupt government wants to get you they don’t need this. They can just unilaterally say you’…

That's not the route in which this will be exploited, and used at scale.

A corrupt government has to know they want you "to just get you". Instead they will embed a collision in anti-government meme. That collision will flag you, and now they know you harbor doubts and will come get you.

This is why it's a privacy concern. It's no the tech (like you said photo dna's been about forver), it's the scanning of the phone.

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#18

Post by jeffbee »

Following the topic because it's interesting, but I'm bothered by the chain of reasoning necessary to reach these conclusions. How sure are we that the means of dumping the model from iOS and converting it to ONNX results in a faithful representation of what NeuralHash actually does?

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#19

Post by stickfigure »

> it's not obvious how we can trust that a rogue actor (like a foreign government) couldn't add non-CSAM hashes to the list to root out human rights advocates or political rivals. Apple has tried to mitigate this by requiring two countries to agree to add a file to the list, but the process for this seems opaque and ripe for abuse.

If the CCP says "put these hashes in your database or we will halt all iPhone sales in China", what do you think Apple is going to do? Is anyone so naive that they believe the CCP wouldn't deliver such an ultimatum? Apple's position seems to completely ignore recent Chinese history.

Re: ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash collisions

#20

Post by thedingwing »

endisneigh wrote: post #8

It doesn’t matter if there are collisions if the two images don’t actually look the same. Do people honestly believe a single CSAM flag from an “innocent” image is going to result in someone going to prison in America? PhotoDNA has existed for over a decade doing the same thing with no instances that I have heard of. If some corrupt government wants to get you they don’t need this. They can just unilaterally say you’…

You don’t need to be sent to prison to be irreparably harmed by an accusation.
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