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Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

cato-at-liberty.org

231–240 of 241 posts

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#231
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, it's not like "problem kids" are necessarily getting a good deal from the public system. Special ed kids are forced to learn "academic" style knowledge rather than the practical life skills they actually need... and behavior problem kids use way more resources than they deserve and harm all the other kids in the process. Sadly, many kids in special ed programs and many behavior problem kids would not have problem…

You completely missed the point. Comparing a single private school, or some subset of them, which has selective admittance with public schools which have to educate everyone is not sound.

Not at all. My point was that there is no reason to educate all kids in the same physical building with the same lunch hour, etc.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you describe what you mean by "home schooled" a little more. For example: > I was able to do things like take the day off of school to copilot with my uncle // Confuses me because when you're copiloting with your uncle you're being home-schooled; you're not having the day off from education you're just doing it differently (right!). Presumably where you are just being educated at home doesn't fit the definition…

You're right. In a way, I was able to get school out of the way so I could learn. There are still requirements to meet. We had standardized testing every year, and coursework to complete. My point is that I could get the formal stuff out of the way at my own pace, and actually do interesting things like learn about aerodynamics first-hand. At a public school, this would have been more difficult to do.

Home schooling is interchanged with what might more correctly be called "non-school based education" here.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Schoolslearninganddevelo...

Gives the legal requirements in the UK. We don't have requirements to sit exams or do specific pieces of work (coursework) as long as "full-time education" is provided.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#233
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a parent of two who does NOT plan on putting his kids in public school because I think they won't be served well there (plan on "home schooling"). 6th through 12th grade is where people learn that life isn't about smart-ness. It's about social-ness. Are you really comfortable with the idea of potentially stunting one of the most important aspects of your child's abilities --- their ability to interact positively…

>Are you really comfortable with the idea of potentially stunting one of the most important aspects of your child's abilities --- their ability to interact positively with people? (People other than you. People who don't already like your child.) heh heh... as someone who's been thru the public school system, I can safely say I don't WANT my kids learning the sort of "social skills" you learn there. You describing it…

For what it's worth, I apologize. No insinuation was meant, I just misspoke. I'm not a parent, and I certainly don't know how to be a good one...

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#234
post #113
post #17

I think the innocence behind that statement comes from the difficulty a teacher will face if s/he must teach students with diverse learning needs (child A is learning timestables while child B has moved on to trigonometry). That said, I think a teacher should suck it up for the sake of students in this sort of situation. At worst, we find ways to reorganize teachers and students based on students' self-progress.

Clearly students need to be placed into classes based on their ability. There is no goddamn reason why student A and student B should be in the same class, or even at the same school.

Agreed. Maybe techies gotta band together and create a better online infrastructure for the whole homeschooling process. Just combine Meetup with Khan Academy and you can have decentralized collaborative homeschooling@!

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#235

I spent some time with a 6 year old, who was my girlfriend's nephew. I noticed that he spoke well and was very sharp, but wasn't able to read. I suggested that we should read some things and he should learn to read, but no - his mother said that he was going to learn to read in 1st grade, with the other kids. Starting him earlier than that, she said, would stunt his social performance because he would be so far ahead…

As someone who learned to read at a very early age, this is horrifying to me.

I didn't know what to say. I can't believe the logic. I wanted to help this kid, but it seems his parents are set on him not turning out any smarter or better educated than they are.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#236
post #6

It's a very bad way of putting it - but I think there's a valid discussion needed around whether schools should enforce 'rounded' education - I think the question is essentially what should we do students who are at 10th grade maths and 5th grade social science? Should we allow earlier education specialization? (ie move them up grades but accept they'll be lacking in some areas) Or keep them in 5th grade until they a…

> all the potential social advantages of being roughly grouped by age

Actually, from what I've seen the one-room-schoolhouse concept is the best. You don't have a single age-group preying on each other in a lord-of-the-flies situation.

True socialization comes from interacting with a reasonable sample of society, in its natural state - such as being surrounded by people of all ages interacting with each other. If we ship kids off the age-segregated prisons every day they become hyper-focused on the views of their peers and vulnerable to pressure.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#237

I suppose it's a Cato blog post, but I was hoping for a more interesting discussion than just a random call for private education, with a market-will-solve it assertion. People learning at different paces and on their own is a fairly interesting problem highlighted here, but I think it's wishful thinking to claim that the perfect answer is already known. It's not entirely clear to me that private schools would cater…

>wishful thinking to claim that the perfect answer is already known

...which is exactly why to leave it to the market.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#238
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a question of whether it's possible, it's a question of whether it's probable. Here's my theory. We should privatize prisons. The competition between companies to build and manage prisons will lead to innovations in rehabilitation techniques, and innovations in efficiency of inmate management. We'll get a system that releases prisoners who don't end up back in prison and it will be cheaper than our current s…

We don't need to theorize. We already have a privatized education system in the US - college. Could you explain why it would be a bad thing to make primary education more like college? Also, if you feel the US college system is so bad, should we try to make our college system more like our primary education system? If not, why not? Your comparison to prisons is silly since a) non-privatized prisons have similar incen…

"Could you explain why it would be a bad thing to make primary education more like college?"

They don't have the same goals. Primary education has to educate everyone. Private colleges can be selective about students, kick out students, etc, etc. You can't compare a system that has to educate everyone with one that can be highly selective. It's apple to oranges. But, private colleges as a whole are questionable. Look at all the diploma mills, aggressive recruitment to private "colleges" with substandard education, no real campus, whose goal is only to make a profit. I can't find it now, but I read a story recently about a scam private college that bought another school that was accredited so that they would get the accreditation which wouldn't be rechecked for years!

So in short, I think some private schools do a great job for some students, but I'm highly doubtful that it will work well for primary education that has to educate everyone.

I think US colleges are great, but it's not the same goal as primary school. I don't think the two are comparable.

The private prison example isn't exactly the same, but it has similarities that you guys are ignoring. The main one is that the incentive is to maximize profit, not to make a better prison or school.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#239
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are you really comfortable with the idea of potentially stunting one of the most important aspects of your child's abilities --- their ability to interact positively with people? (People other than you. People who don't already like your child.) heh heh... as someone who's been thru the public school system, I can safely say I don't WANT my kids learning the sort of "social skills" you learn there. You describing it…

For what it's worth, I apologize. No insinuation was meant, I just misspoke. I'm not a parent, and I certainly don't know how to be a good one...

No worries. :) As a homeschooling parent, I'm used to such comments. I didn't mean to berate as much as just to make sure you were aware that suggesting a parent is "taking risks" to "stunt a child's growth" can be considered offensive. +1 for dialog!

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#240
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet here I am, a successful software engineer, due in large part to a good public education. But were you given a good education, or were you smart enough to educate yourself given a modicum of education and a structured environment? The problem is that half of people are not smart enough. If you teach them to read using word recognition, they will not deduce phonics on their own, so their reading ability is permanen…

"But were you given a good education, or were you smart enough to educate yourself given a modicum of education and a structured environment?" I didn't care about education until i was in my 20s. I would not have educated myself as a child or teenager. "The problem is that half of people are not smart enough" That sounds like a number you pulled out of your butt. Do you have any real statistics on that? "The problem…

I would not have educated myself as a child or teenager.

What I mean is if you were chained to a desk and forced to study something, would your mind have automatically picked out relationships and meanings, even if they were not explicitly drilled? Most people in the upper third of intelligence do this almost automatically. For them, the curriculum is not the education.

"The problem is that half of people are not smart enough."

The studies of IQ and life outcome suggest that people of below-average intelligence do not spontaneously deduce general principles when given many specific examples. If you teach them to read by word recognition training, they will not figure out the rules of phonics on their own. It will be difficult or impossible for them to read a word that was not trained into them in childhood. (Whereas even really thick people trained in phonics can read words like "platen" or "vellus" that they have never seen before, and they can make themselves understood at writing down words they know but have never seen spelled.)

States once had a lot of leeway in their education systems.

I was thinking of decentralization even at a lower level. If all the schools in a city are captured by a stupid fad, it may take decades for the city to escape. If individual schools are left to run themselves, the ones that pick dumb ideas will lose students/money to schools that pick good ideas.

She'd have no idea what graphs mean, and even if she got it to some degree it would be very easy to mislead her.

She wouldn't be able to understand "the students here get the worst scores in town"? And she would keep not understanding it for 13 years? And you would never figure it out and ask to go somewhere else? There may be some students in that situation, but there are many families with some degree of awareness and ambition, and their ambitions will promptly show up in budget cuts.

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