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Canada calls screen scraping ‘unsecure,’ sets Open Banking target for 2023

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Re: Canada calls screen scraping ‘unsecure,’ sets Open Banking target for 2023

#231
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm conflicted on the issue. Plaid only has to do this insane screen scraping because there's no other way to get my own financial data. The details of how it's done pains me, but I also think I should have freedom of choice with my data. IMHO, the Canadian proposal seems like the ideal solution. Force the banks to offer a secure and more efficient way for consumers to access their open banking data. (This will also…

You're basically saying that if a law makes something impossible, then it's OK to ignore the law?

This is how most old/out of date laws/not fit for purpose laws end up being revised.

Re: Canada calls screen scraping ‘unsecure,’ sets Open Banking target for 2023

#232

As a developer living in a country that has fully implemented "Open Banking", here's a quick setting of expectations for Canadian developers so they don't get too excited as I did when this was first being introduced. Open Banking is not, in fact, open in almost any sense of the world. It is standardised and the standards are freely available ("open"), but other than that, you still need to have an official "blessing…

Well, your expectations were clearly wrong.

“Open” in this case means open standards and access for accredited entities.

Because if you grant access to just anyone, then you’ve created an instant fraudster’s paradise.

The legal requirements in the UK (which you may be talking about, unsure) are not meaningless, they are there to ensure that known parties and known good practice are in use. Open Banking the company is working on ways to help small businesses gain accreditation and may already be able to offer assistance, and while accreditation is not free, it’s only a few £k, hardly enough to break the bank.

As a non-accredited actor, if you have a limited company you can register as a technical service provider for free and develop your product against the sandbox environment.

Oh and you don’t have to negotiate access with each bank either. The whole point is to pre-vet and establish trust ahead of time.

That’s as open as anyone with half a brain should want it to be, given what we know about people’s ability to protect their own finances.

Re: Canada calls screen scraping ‘unsecure,’ sets Open Banking target for 2023

#233

As a developer living in a country that has fully implemented "Open Banking", here's a quick setting of expectations for Canadian developers so they don't get too excited as I did when this was first being introduced. Open Banking is not, in fact, open in almost any sense of the world. It is standardised and the standards are freely available ("open"), but other than that, you still need to have an official "blessing…

> What I imagined when I first heard of "Open Banking" was a public OAuth2 endpoint where I can grant my custom script access to just my bank balance and transaction history (possibly with a change webhook) and have it update my finance tracking database.

Banks are dealing in financial stuff. They probably do not want to deal with people having problems understanding OAuth2, API's, sandboxes and such. That is an entire different business.

Re: Canada calls screen scraping ‘unsecure,’ sets Open Banking target for 2023

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of my banking institutions let me generate a read-only set of credentials for this sort of purpose. Citi and Capital One have OAuth flows that Plaid supports, too, which tends to make me angrier at the banks than Plaid; the need for this stuff has been clear for a decade now, but only a few have added OAuth or similar.

AFAIU, there are still zero (0) consumer banking APIs with Read-Only e.g. OAuth APIs in the US as well? Banks could save themselves CPU, RAM, bandwidth, and liability by implementing read-only API tokens and methods that need only return JSON - instead of HTML or worse, monthly PDF tables for a fee - possibly similar to the Plaid API: https://plaid.com/docs/api/ There is competition in consumer/retail banking, but st…

> Hopefully individuals will be able to use the Open Banking APIs to access their own data directly, but it looks like accreditation will be required, so probably not.

When you loan your money to a bank by depositing ledger dollars or cash - and they, since GLBA in 1999, invest it and offer less than a 1% checking interest rate - and they won't even give you the record of all of your transactions as CSV/OFX `SELECT * FROM transactions WHERE account_id=?`, you have to pay $20/mo per autogenerated PDF containing a table of transactions to scrape with e.g. PDFminer (because they don't keep all account history data online)?

Seemingly OT, but not. APIs for comparison here:

FinTS / HBCI: Home Banking Computer Information protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FinTS

E.g. GNUcash (open source double-entry accounting software) supports HBCI (and QIF (Quicken format), and OFX (Open Financial Exchange)). https://www.gnucash.org/features.phtml

HBCI/FinTS has been around in Germany for quite awhile but nowhere else has comparable banking standards? I.e. Plaid may (unfortunately, due to lack of read-only tokens across the entire US consumer banking industry) be the most viable option for implementing HBCI-like support in GNUcash

OpenBanking API Specifications: https://standards.openbanking.org.uk/api-specifications/

Web3 (Ethereum,) APIs: https://web3py.readthedocs.io/en/stable/web3.main.html#rpc-a...

ISO20022 is "A single standardisation approach (methodology, process, repository) to be used by all financial standards initiatives" https://www.iso20022.org/

Brazil's PIX is one of the first real implementers of ISO20022. A note regarding such challenges: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24104351

What data format does the FTC CAT Consolidated Audit Trail expect to receive mandatory financial reporting information in? Could ILP simplify banking and financial reporting at all?

FWIU, RippleNet (?) is the only network that supports attachments of e.g. line-item invoices (that we'd all like to see in the interest of transparency and accountability in government spending).

W3C ILP: Interledger Protocol. See links above.

Of the specs in this loose category, only cryptoledgers do not depend upon (DNS or) TLS/SSL - at the protocol layer, at least - and every CA in the kept-up-to-date trusted CA cert bundle (that could be built from a CT Certificate Transparency log of cert issuance and revocation events kept in a blockchain or e.g. centralized google/trillian, which they have the trusted sole root and backup responsibilities for).

Though, the DNS dependency has probably crept back into e.g. the bitcoind software by now (which used to bootstrap its list of peer nodes (~UNL) from an IRC IP address instead of a DNS domain).

FWIU, each trusted ACH (US 'Direct Deposit') party has a (one) GPG key that they use to sign transaction documents sent over now (S)FTP on scout's honor - on behalf of all of their customers' accounts.

Re: Canada calls screen scraping ‘unsecure,’ sets Open Banking target for 2023

#235
Australia is building Open Banking (and generically Consumer Data Standards) APIs on GitHub. https://github.com/ConsumerDataStandardsAustralia/standards

This is a problem discussed here as well. Generally big banks are advocating getting rid of screen scraping and moving to API but most fintechs are smaller and they don't want to change and there is little appetite from Govt. to force them.

Re: Canada calls screen scraping ‘unsecure,’ sets Open Banking target for 2023

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plaid is only one security breach away from being utterly destroyed. And they will take out the financial lives of all their customers with them. It’s utterly irresponsible and I have no idea how Plaid hasn’t been shut down. You have no recourse if they are breached. The TOS of your online banking probably says that if you disclose your username and password to any third party then you have no liability protections.

> It’s utterly irresponsible and I have no idea how Plaid hasn’t been shut down. You have no recourse if they are breached. Wise (formerly TransferWise) is another example. You have to move funds into your Wise account before you can do a transfer, payment, or currency exchange. Wise offer various ways to fund your account such as wire transfer, credit card payment, debit card payment, etc., each of which has differe…

In Australia Wise will provide you with a reference number and hold the xfer and wait for me to transfer the money to them. Wise has a unique email called a PayId that is registered to their account.

I use my banks app and transfer money to their PayId using the reference number. The transfer takes a few seconds. When Wise gets the money in their account they resume the transfer and I get an in-app notification. Easy

Re: Canada calls screen scraping ‘unsecure,’ sets Open Banking target for 2023

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm speaking about Canada. I should have mentioned that. You're right that the payment options are probably quite different in each country where Wise operates.

Out of curiosity, in Canada (and the USA, where I assume it will be similar), how do you call the system to authorise a business, for example a utility company, to charge your bank account directly every given period, with a more-or-less flexible amount, and with no need for you to take any action? The reason I ask is that that is what is called a "Direct Debit" in the UK and the European SEPA area, and it does not i…

This is as common as bread and butter in Australia. You provide your bank account (or credit/debit card) details to the company or even govt (gas, electricity, water, car registration, insurance, internet, mobile etc.) and a so called direct debit authority and the company will just debit from your account on the due date.

Re: Canada calls screen scraping ‘unsecure,’ sets Open Banking target for 2023

#238
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually do agree - but two wrongs don't make a right here. Taking raw credentials from users without them knowing is completely messed up and a massive danger to the end-user. It's not justifiable in those terms.

Yes I agree it can be scary, but it seems like this is the way a lot of companies have to do things if they want regulation to change at any reasonable pace. Just look at Uber and AirBnB as examples. Most cities they started in they were operating in kinda grey areas or even breaking laws. But they could afford to eat any fines and continue on anyway. It forced governments to put regulations in place to support these…

But is it a good thing for companies that are rich enough to be able to force changes in regulations by overwhelming the government's ability to punish them?

Re: Canada calls screen scraping ‘unsecure,’ sets Open Banking target for 2023

#239

As a developer living in a country that has fully implemented "Open Banking", here's a quick setting of expectations for Canadian developers so they don't get too excited as I did when this was first being introduced. Open Banking is not, in fact, open in almost any sense of the world. It is standardised and the standards are freely available ("open"), but other than that, you still need to have an official "blessing…

If you're based in Europe or UK, Nordigen has a completely free API do exactly what you described (I'm one of the cofounders). We're connected to 1,500 EU/UK banks and you can connect your bank account to your script/app without any license, certificates or any fees. We don't charge for accessing banking data, we only charge for complimentary data enrichment services like transaction categorisation. https://nordigen.…

Look pretty good.

Any plans to add Bank of Valletta (Malta)?

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