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Show HN: Neural-hash-collider – Find target hash collisions for NeuralHash

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Re: Show HN: Neural-hash-collider – Find target hash collisions for NeuralHash

#241

Post by kuratkull »

ec109685 wrote: post #152
ryanmarsh wrote: post #7

Ok so now all we have to do is get a phone, load it with adversarial images that have hashes from the CSAM database and we wait and see what happens. Basically a honeypot. Get some top civil rights attorneys involved. Take the case to the Supreme Court. Get precedence set right. Lawfare

The adversarial images have to match both the NeuralHash output of CSAM, plus another private perceptual hash that points to the same image that only Apple has access to, plus a human reviewer needs to agree it is CSAM, and this has to happen for 30 images.

Do you think the reviewer will dismiss the alert if only 29 images look like CSAM and the last one looks like a Beagle? What if only 1 looks like CSAM and the other 29 are animal pictures? It's a safe bet that they will report your account for the 1 that looks like CSAM.

Re: Show HN: Neural-hash-collider – Find target hash collisions for NeuralHash

#242

Post by ThinBold »

istingray wrote: post #177
ThinBold wrote: post #156

Despite that Apple scanning our images is a horrible privacy practice, I don't get why 𝚜̶𝚘̶ ̶𝚖̶𝚊̶𝚗̶𝚢̶ some people think this is an ineffective idea. Surely you can easily fabricate innocent images whose NeuralHash matches the database. But in what way are you going to send them to victims and convince them to save them to their photo library? The moment you send it via WhatsApp FB will stop you because (they th…

I believe being downvoted because this is thoroughly covered in the thread. Suggest you read it all again.

I did my best skimming comments the algorithm showed me, including related posts' comments. But man am I bad at reading comprehension.

If I miss anything then surely I am willing to be corrected. But so far I don't see comments that show us how to penetrate the four-layer system (local hash check, semantic check by user, on-server hash check, and human reviewer).

Re: Show HN: Neural-hash-collider – Find target hash collisions for NeuralHash

#243

Post by jjcon »

spullara wrote: post #122

Apple is scanning files locally before they are uploaded to iCloud in order to avoid storing unencrypted photos within iCloud but still discovering CSAM. All the other storage providers already scan all the images uploaded on their servers. I guess you can decide which is better. Here is Google's report on it: https://transparencyreport.google.com/child-sexual-abuse-mat...

> in order to avoid storing unencrypted photos within iCloud

To be clear, Apple does not utilize E2E in iCloud. They can (and already do) scan iCloud contents

Re: Show HN: Neural-hash-collider – Find target hash collisions for NeuralHash

#244

Post by kuratkull »

neom wrote: post #11
sodality2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple began scanning for CSAM with Neuralhash. This allows you to turn an image into a specific neuralhash thus possibly triggering its (automatic) CSAM detection. Imagine if a picture of a cat could cause Apple to think you have CP on your device.

Well, you'd have to do it 30 times to trigger the system, and then someone at apple moderation would look at those 30 pictures of cats and hit "next" vs "supervisor"

You can be pretty sure they'll report your account if at least 1 low-res thumbnail ("visual derivative") looks like an image of naked people/a sexual act.

Re: Show HN: Neural-hash-collider – Find target hash collisions for NeuralHash

#245

Post by simondotau »

Alupis wrote: post #232
simondotau wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that if the US Government compelled Apple to scans millions of citizen's private property for non-CSAM images, this would not be a clear-cut violation of the Fourth Amendment? I'm curious, do you think that the Third Party Doctrine applies here?

I think the realistic danger here is the US Government no longer needs to compel this type of activity. Reference Twitter and Facebook/Instagram voluntarily censorship per mere suggestion of the current administration/power party.

Let's be practical for a minute. What specific image would Apple voluntarily search for on behalf of the US Government? I sincerely can't think of anything.

Re: Show HN: Neural-hash-collider – Find target hash collisions for NeuralHash

#246

Post by yoz-y »

To me the most interesting findings from this fiasco were:

1. People actually do use generally publicly available services to store and distribute CP (as suggested by the amount of reports done by Facebook)

2. A lot of people evidently use iCloud Photo Library to store images of things other than pictures they took themselves. This is not really surprising, I've learned that the answer of "does anybody ever?" questions is aways "yes". It is a bit weird though since the photo library is terrible for this use case.

Re: Show HN: Neural-hash-collider – Find target hash collisions for NeuralHash

#247

Post by simondotau »

Alupis wrote: post #238
simondotau wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you do need a citation, because I've not heard Apple (or anyone else) claim that iCloud Backups or iCloud Drive are being subject to CSAM scans. From everything I've read, from Apple and other sources, if the photo is about to be uploaded to iCloud Photo Library then it is scanned for CSAM. If it's not, it isn't.

How does one choose individual photos to not upload?

You store the photos you want to keep private in another app. I'm sure there are lots in the App Store.

Still waiting on that citation.

Re: Show HN: Neural-hash-collider – Find target hash collisions for NeuralHash

#248

Post by fnord77 »

cirrus3 wrote: post #141
fnord77 wrote: post #111

how long until they start scanning a device's framebuffer in realtime? why stop at CSAM? Pirated material like movies next?

They are not doing this for the fun of it. If they didn't have to, they would not do it at all. You have made a huge leap from scanning for pre-existing CSAM while in transit to a cloud service to scanning frame buffers on device in real-time. You should get some type of Olympic medal for such a leap. This tech is to catch the lowest possible hanging fruit of the dumbest of all CSAM-sharing/saving folks as required b…

I give it 5 years

Re: Show HN: Neural-hash-collider – Find target hash collisions for NeuralHash

#249

Post by noduerme »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #187
cookiengineer wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter-question: At what point is child porn actually child porn, socially and statistically speaking? If I share that picture of my child with my friends and loved ones on Facebook - at what "scale" is it considered to be added to that database as child porn? 1k shares? 10k? Who's the one eligible to decide that? The judicatives? I think this scenario is a constitutional crisis because there's no good solution to i…

I think you're underestimating the severity of child abuse by orders of magnitude. CSAM is a database of child rape, not child nudity.

idk what's in the database, whether it's rape or nudes or both. Although depictions of sexual acts versus simple nudity seems like a logical place to draw a line, all the lines on adult pornography are arbitrarily drawn based on "community standards", and we're only a few decades away from state-level bans on any nudes as "porn" in the US, including artistic photos. (Not to mention anti-sodomy laws).

Even if what's in the database is 100% violently criminal as you suggest, and even if it remains limited to that material, we already have a process in place that denies the accused of even seeing the evidence against them if a hash matches. What a horrific, orwellian situation if someone sent you hash matches, the police raid your house and now you can't even see what they think they have or prove your own innocence.

Re: Show HN: Neural-hash-collider – Find target hash collisions for NeuralHash

#250

Post by noduerme »

shuckles wrote: post #115
SCLeo wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic. In case you are not, isn't the act of sending those pictures completely illegal?

People here are proposing intentionally creating image assets which collide with perceptual hashes of known CSAM (ignoring whether that is legal or ethical) and sharing those assets to effectively SWAT unaware targets.

I haven't seen anyone proposing actually doing it, but I think a lot of people are rightly pointing out that bad actors, black hats and the Russian mob are going to have a field day with their ability to do so.
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