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Unsolicited Redesigns (Khoi Vinh responds to NYTimes redesign)

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Re: Unsolicited Redesigns (Khoi Vinh responds to NYTimes redesign)

#61

Post by eropple »

kstrauser wrote: post #57

I'm not a designer and come into this not knowing who Khoi Vinh is. However, his site's footer - Visual design, layout and Cascading Style Sheets may not be reused without permission. - just reeks of self-importance. I'm really not allowed to make a high-contrast fixed-width three-column layout with header and footer without Vinh's authorization? I realize this might be like coming to a software discussion and not kn…

I think you missed the point. A different high-contrast fixed-width three-column layout? Totally cool. Just don't take his CSS to do it.

(Yes, this is commonplace; his little footer blurb will probably do nothing to stop somebody who wants to, but I can't blame him for it.)

Re: Unsolicited Redesigns (Khoi Vinh responds to NYTimes redesign)

#62

Post by hax2dyou »

Khoi Vinh has no control over the content of the website. He has to listen to many bosses.

He should have been honest and come out and said that. Instead, he chose to be a jerk.

Guess what Khoi, we do this for fun, so no it's not a waste of time. You clearly do not do your job well, nor do you enjoy it.

Re: Unsolicited Redesigns (Khoi Vinh responds to NYTimes redesign)

#63

Post by joshrice »

blueskittle wrote: post #58

Having worked for a major metro newspaper's website, I'm fully aware of the challenges faced by Khoi and others. The homepage is the Mt. Everest of challenges within these organizations.There are so many considerations and limitations, which are compounded by the fact that so many people within the organization have a vested interest in the homepage design. It's impossible for people such as Khoi to push a design thr…

"But if I'm not on the front page, above the fold, no one will (read my articles | (see|buy) ads)!"

It's a constant battle between the ad department and the content makers, and then between the content makers themselves.

Re: Unsolicited Redesigns (Khoi Vinh responds to NYTimes redesign)

#64

Post by funkah »

hax2dyou wrote: post #62

Khoi Vinh has no control over the content of the website. He has to listen to many bosses. He should have been honest and come out and said that. Instead, he chose to be a jerk. Guess what Khoi, we do this for fun, so no it's not a waste of time. You clearly do not do your job well, nor do you enjoy it.

Wow. It's hard to believe people come out of this thinking Khoi is the "jerk" here. And that he doesn't do his job well. It's sad that you think that.

Re: Unsolicited Redesigns (Khoi Vinh responds to NYTimes redesign)

#65

Post by donohoe »

jamesteow wrote: post #51
donohoe wrote: post #38

When Andy's link was first posted here it struck a nerve with many people, especially myself ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2806257 ). The big problem that myself and many others have with Andy is that he is a professional. He is known in web standards and design circles. He builds web sites. The big point here: He has been on the other side of the design process (I presume) explaining to people why things wer…

Working on a startup is nothing like working client side at a place like the NYT. With the former, one can be agile and code up some easy edits in a few days, and push it out without weeks of deliberation. It's easy to pick out the navigation and say, "look, let's cut some of this out or hide it in secondary navigation." Good luck with that with corporations as big as the NYT. Chances are, each link is represented by…

This is very true - sadly.

The top nav of the NYTimes is a political minefield ("HOME PAGE, TODAY'S PAPER, VIDEO, MOST POPULAR, TIMES TOPICS". Part of the problem is that links to some of these pages exist nowhere else (or relatively few other obvious parts). Its a big big web site and over time some organization was lost as new pages crept in.

BUT... Do you know what happens if you remove it? Nothing. No meaningful impact on traffic. Yet there it still ives.

The Left Navigation bar on the Homepage is a recognized problem internally. However you need to weight:

- Same argument as above, some links to these pages don't really exist anywhere else (Skimmer, Times Wire, Multimedia, Times Machine). You need to solve that problem first.

- Various departments would make a stink if they did not have the glorious link from the Homepage.

- If you remove it, you're probably talking about a solution that would take up more horizontal space and push the content down even further.

Those are the two immediate ones that I recall. I don't see this being addressed specifically anytime soon - it was hard enough to clear space for the Facebook module.

Re: Unsolicited Redesigns (Khoi Vinh responds to NYTimes redesign)

#66

Post by pbhjpbhj »

esrauch wrote: post #56
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook has forced some fairly annoying changes with their chat interface They didn't force that change, you can just turn it off.

How can you turn it off?

I don't really remember but when it appeared there was an option button/link and I followed it and one option is to switch off the sidebar. Never use messaging really.

Looking just now I have the old style tab, if I click it the sidebar pops open, there's a "cog" for settings in the bottom right corner. IIRC you have to set yourself as "unavailable" to all and then use the cog to select "hide sidebar". Try that.

Re: Unsolicited Redesigns (Khoi Vinh responds to NYTimes redesign)

#67

Post by MichaelApproved »

mbreese wrote: post #25
MichaelApproved wrote: post #6

But as they do so, I also hope they remember it helps no one — least of all the author of the redesign — to assume the worst about the original source and the people who work hard to maintain and improve it, even though those efforts may seem imperfect from the outside. Redesigns, solicited or not, are very helpful to me. I don't care what internal politics the original product designer is grappling with. It's refres…

I thought it was very clear... Redesigns are good, but don't assume that as an outside designer that you have all of the relevant data. I don't recall Khoi making a statement about the redesign itself, just the tone of the explanation of it. I got the impression that the choices made had valid reasoning behind them that may not be obvious to someone outside of the times. It had nothing to do with internal politics, b…

Design is great. Practical design is better.

That's really true but nonetheless, its helpful to see another design point of view. If the nytimes disagreed with the tone that was taken then state that but don't dismiss the whole article.

He could've adressed the design concerns and also mention his shpeal about the tone that was taken.

Re: Unsolicited Redesigns (Khoi Vinh responds to NYTimes redesign)

#68

Post by esrauch »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #66
esrauch wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you turn it off?

I don't really remember but when it appeared there was an option button/link and I followed it and one option is to switch off the sidebar. Never use messaging really. Looking just now I have the old style tab, if I click it the sidebar pops open, there's a "cog" for settings in the bottom right corner. IIRC you have to set yourself as "unavailable" to all and then use the cog to select "hide sidebar". Try that.

Hm, I think we had a slight disconnect in our topic!

In the last week or two, Facebook changed their messaging UI so that you cannot get a list of all your buddies that are online to chat (it guesses who you would care to see) among other mostly cosmetic changes. AFAIK there is no way to use the chat UI that was available a month ago now (or see if a particular person is online unless you specifically type in their name).

Re: Unsolicited Redesigns (Khoi Vinh responds to NYTimes redesign)

#69

Post by a3camero »

kstrauser wrote: post #57

I'm not a designer and come into this not knowing who Khoi Vinh is. However, his site's footer - Visual design, layout and Cascading Style Sheets may not be reused without permission. - just reeks of self-importance. I'm really not allowed to make a high-contrast fixed-width three-column layout with header and footer without Vinh's authorization? I realize this might be like coming to a software discussion and not kn…

Many sites have (c) XXXX-YYYY at the bottom. Same thing.

Re: Unsolicited Redesigns (Khoi Vinh responds to NYTimes redesign)

#70

Post by pbhjpbhj »

esrauch wrote: post #68
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really remember but when it appeared there was an option button/link and I followed it and one option is to switch off the sidebar. Never use messaging really. Looking just now I have the old style tab, if I click it the sidebar pops open, there's a "cog" for settings in the bottom right corner. IIRC you have to set yourself as "unavailable" to all and then use the cog to select "hide sidebar". Try that.

Hm, I think we had a slight disconnect in our topic! In the last week or two, Facebook changed their messaging UI so that you cannot get a list of all your buddies that are online to chat (it guesses who you would care to see) among other mostly cosmetic changes. AFAIK there is no way to use the chat UI that was available a month ago now (or see if a particular person is online unless you specifically type in their n…

Indeed. I don't think there is a way to get back the scrolling list of who is online at present - but like I say I never IM people on FB.
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