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The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

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Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#111
post #94
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. Diehr did not start the mess. The Diehr opinion said exactly the same thing Flook did. More to come in an essay I'm working on now.

Finished the essay: http://ourdoings.com/ourdoings-startup/2011-07-28

That's a good summary. I admit that putting a "start" on this mess is a bit difficult, because things happened one step at a time.

I think the problem, though, is in how 35 USC 101 (patentable subject matter) got unhinged from 102 & 103 (novelty / non-obviousness). So you could meet the novelty requirements with something that wasn't patentable subject matter at all.

Once the lawyers could pry them apart like that, they could pass 101's requirements by saying the software is running on a computer and pass 102 & 103 requirements by saying that the software is new, even if the hardware in the patent is a normal PC. If they reversed that old decision and said that you can only pass 102 & 103 with something that is patentable subject matter, the scheme would fall apart.

You will note that this is, in effect, exactly what the decision to treat the stuff that isn't patentable subject matter as part of the prior art accomplishes and that Parker v. Flook does precisely that. Meanwhile, with Diamond v. Diehr, they got considered separately and ultimately separated.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#112

This will never happen. Consider a mechanical timer in a washing machine. A timer that produces a novel washing cycle is certainly patentable. Consider a chain of electromechanical relays that produces the same cycle. Clearly it is just as patentable, and could be covered by a well-written version of the preceding patent. Consider the transistorized version of the preceding, with the relays replaced by transistors. P…

I believe this is called the continuum fallacy:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Continuum_fal...

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#114
post #107
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find originalism to be the only reasonable way to interpret the document. If the constitution doesn't say what you want it to say, then change it. Once you start changing the meaning of the words you defeat the purpose of having a written constitution.

Don't look now, but language, culture, and technology all change. Change right out from under the most carefully-written of legislation, in fact. Adapting to the now is what I think is the "only reasonable way" to come at the document - and has the advantage of admitting that it's an interpretation, instead of attempting to sneakily de-legitimatize all other interpretations. But you go ahead and ask James Madison wha…

Don't look now, but language, culture, and technology all change. Change right out from under the most carefully-written of legislation, in fact.

In some cases, perhaps. But where copyright, patents, or trademarks are concerned, the US Constitution is quite clear what their effect must be: congress may pass & enforce these laws "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts", and nothing more. In my opinion, the succinctness and simplicity of the Copyright Clause is almost timeless.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#116

This will never happen. Consider a mechanical timer in a washing machine. A timer that produces a novel washing cycle is certainly patentable. Consider a chain of electromechanical relays that produces the same cycle. Clearly it is just as patentable, and could be covered by a well-written version of the preceding patent. Consider the transistorized version of the preceding, with the relays replaced by transistors. P…

Your contrived chain of analogies ends in a total strawman. I think you intended the last item on your list to be pure software, but it's not. It's just an electronic version of the first item. No one is arguing that a complete electronic timer should not be patentable. The argument is whether the software alone should be patentable. The software by itself is NOT a timer. The timer's software is only the idea of the…

I think you intended the last item on your list to be pure software, but it's not.

You have hit the crux of the discussion. I am defining software as a tangible thing, existing as a pattern of matter and fields. It is not abstract, virtual, or ineffable. What you are talking about ("pure software") are ideas about the software's principles of operation. The mathematical and logical ideas by which we understand a process are not patentable, but their tangible embodiment (software) is patentable.

Consider an example of the difference. Prime numbers are abstract ideas that can be used to create difficult-to-solve problems, and thereby used for cryptography. As abstract ideas, they are not patentable. Someone could embody those ideas in a logic machine (like the RSA algorithm) and patent that. But somebody else could embody those ideas in an analog laser interferometer and patent that, without conflict with the other patent.

No one is arguing that a complete electronic timer should not be patentable.

And that is exactly what is covered by a valid software patent. Such patents claim something like "Claim 1: A stored-program logic machine, configured to provide the process described in claim 2." The configuration of the logic machine is the software.

A well-written patent will cover all variations of the software that are "obvious" to "a person skilled in the art". This generality is why all patents are so painful to evade, not just software patents.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your contrived chain of analogies ends in a total strawman. I think you intended the last item on your list to be pure software, but it's not. It's just an electronic version of the first item. No one is arguing that a complete electronic timer should not be patentable. The argument is whether the software alone should be patentable. The software by itself is NOT a timer. The timer's software is only the idea of the…

I think you intended the last item on your list to be pure software, but it's not. You have hit the crux of the discussion. I am defining software as a tangible thing, existing as a pattern of matter and fields. It is not abstract, virtual, or ineffable. What you are talking about ("pure software") are ideas about the software's principles of operation. The mathematical and logical ideas by which we understand a proc…

> "I am defining software as a tangible thing, existing as a pattern of matter and fields."

Ok, but that means you're not talking about software patents any more. The U.S. patent office currently cares nothing about patterns of matter and fields.

> "And that [a complete physical timer] is exactly what is covered by a valid software patent."

No, wrong. That's how it should be, but it's not, and that's the problem. Officially, patent law isn't supposed to allow patents on "abstract ideas", but due to incomplete guidance from the courts, the requirements have been diluted to nothing. Right now in the U.S., a software patent application can satisfy the requirements by specifying any trivial physical step. Most software patents specify only a "computing device" on which the software is used. Well gee whiz, guess what that covers? You got it, everything! It's useless language; there's no narrowing, no added specificity. It would be just as usefull to specify "software in Her Majesty the Queen's service". As a result, for the past 20 years the USPTO has essentially been granting patents on pure software.

A patent on a laser interferometer that encodes instructions is no longer a software patent; that would be covered by a mechanical patent. And this patent certainly would be in conflict with any software patents that covered the software encoded thereby, if the interferometer were ever put to use in a product.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you intended the last item on your list to be pure software, but it's not. You have hit the crux of the discussion. I am defining software as a tangible thing, existing as a pattern of matter and fields. It is not abstract, virtual, or ineffable. What you are talking about ("pure software") are ideas about the software's principles of operation. The mathematical and logical ideas by which we understand a proc…

> "I am defining software as a tangible thing, existing as a pattern of matter and fields." Ok, but that means you're not talking about software patents any more. The U.S. patent office currently cares nothing about patterns of matter and fields. > "And that [a complete physical timer] is exactly what is covered by a valid software patent." No, wrong. That's how it should be, but it's not, and that's the problem. Off…

The U.S. patent office currently cares nothing about patterns of matter and fields.

Right now in the U.S., a software patent application can satisfy the requirements by specifying any trivial physical step. Most software patents specify only a "computing device" on which the software is used.

So which is it? Physical embodiment = not abstract.

A patent on a laser interferometer that encodes instructions is no longer a software patent; ...

I was talking about interference machines that use the wave properties of light to do computation without the use of digital logic. With these machines, abstract mathematical approaches are reduced to practice by means other than software. The software patent does not somehow magically fence off an area of abstract thought. What it fences off is a particularly convenient and valuable area of concrete machinery.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I am defining software as a tangible thing, existing as a pattern of matter and fields." Ok, but that means you're not talking about software patents any more. The U.S. patent office currently cares nothing about patterns of matter and fields. > "And that [a complete physical timer] is exactly what is covered by a valid software patent." No, wrong. That's how it should be, but it's not, and that's the problem. Off…

The U.S. patent office currently cares nothing about patterns of matter and fields. Right now in the U.S., a software patent application can satisfy the requirements by specifying any trivial physical step. Most software patents specify only a "computing device" on which the software is used. So which is it? Physical embodiment = not abstract. A patent on a laser interferometer that encodes instructions is no longer…

> "So which is it? Physical embodiment = not abstract."

No, the point is that there effectively is no "physical embodiment" requirement. Adding magic words like "computing device" or "system and method" to a patent application has no real effect, because ALL software is run on a "computing device" or a "system". This does nothing to narrow the scope of a patent, or to tie it to any distinct physical implementation. The ONLY distinct entity in such a patent is the algorithm.

This will become immediately clear to you if you read any number of software or business method patents. You seem to have created your own alternate reality here, where software patents are necessarily like mechanical patents. They are not.

> "I was talking about interference machines that use the wave properties of light to do computation without the use of digital logic."

Fine, whatever. Any patent that covers your thingamajig in its physical manifestation will have to be a proper mechanical patent, complete with design drawings. As a separate matter, the computation performed by the machine can be expressed algorithmically, and that algorithm is what could be covered by a software patent, completely apart from whatever machine implements it. That patent can then be asserted against any other use of that algorithm regardless of the physical system that uses it.

> "The software patent does not somehow magically fence off an area of abstract thought. What it fences off is a particularly convenient and valuable area of concrete machinery."

No, again, that would be a mechanical patent. Have you really not ever read a software patent? Go look one up; maybe start with one of the patents on LZW, or maybe amazon's 1-click patent.

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