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Apple defends anti-child abuse imagery tech after claims of ‘hash collisions’

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Re: Apple defends anti-child abuse imagery tech after claims of ‘hash collisions’

#141

Post by shuckles »

guerrilla wrote: post #119

Something just occurred to me. If this goes forward, and then Microsoft and/or Google copy it, then we might see lawmakers expecting it. If that becomes the case, then it'd be yet another barrier to entry (in addition to a cop on every phone.) Isn't that where we already with things like Article 17 of the EU's Copyright Directive?

This is already the world we live in, with vendors like Thorn building SaaS solutions for people who accept UGC but don’t have the clout to integrate with NCMEC and Microsoft PhotoDNA directly.

Re: Apple defends anti-child abuse imagery tech after claims of ‘hash collisions’

#142

Post by fraa-orolo »

FabHK wrote: post #112
epistasis wrote: post #42

What's shocking to me is how little Apple management understood of what their actions looked like. Really stunning. For a company that marketed itself as one of the few digital service providers that consumers could trust, I just don't understand how they acted this way at all. Either there will be heads rolling at management, or Apple takes a permanent hit to consumer trust.

> What's shocking to me is how little Apple management understood of what their actions looked like. Really stunning. Maybe because they underestimated people's ignorance. I think they saw (and still do see) it as a better, more privacy preserving technique than what everyone else is doing.

The thing is that this is a better and more privacy preserving technique.

Their hubris is in not seeing or thinking that they will be able to stand up to all kinds of abuses of this system that its mere existence will invite; their hubris is also in thinking that they will be able to perfectly and without mistakes manage and overview a system making accusations so heinous that even the mere act of accusing destroy people's lives and livelihoods.

Re: Apple defends anti-child abuse imagery tech after claims of ‘hash collisions’

#143

Post by orangeoxidation »

jowsie wrote: post #131
lixtra wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> other major cloud providers catch CSAM content on their platform by inspecting every file uploaded That is very unlikely. Most likely they compare some hash against a database - just like apple.

That's what they're saying, the key difference is Apples happens on your device, not theirs.

Making it obviously and unquestionably more invasive.

Re: Apple defends anti-child abuse imagery tech after claims of ‘hash collisions’

#144

Post by GeekyBear »

heavyset_go wrote: post #120
GeekyBear wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that's shocking to me is that Google, Microsoft and all the big names in tech have been scanning everything in your account (email, cloud drive, photos, etc) for the past decade, without any noticeable uproar. Apple announces that it is going to start scanning iCloud Photos only, and that their system is set to ignore anything below a threshold of ~30 positives before triggering a human review, and people l…

This seems like a common deflection, but get back to me when either company puts programs in my pocket that scan my data for crimes and snitch on me to authorities.

>a man [was] arrested on child pornography charges, after Google tipped off authorities about illegal images found in the Houston suspect's Gmail account

https://techcrunch.com/2014/08/06/why-the-gmail-scan-that-le...

You don't consider the contents of your email account or the files you mirror to a cloud drive to be your own private data?

Re: Apple defends anti-child abuse imagery tech after claims of ‘hash collisions’

#145

Post by carnitas »

helen___keller wrote: post #97
epistasis wrote: post #42

What's shocking to me is how little Apple management understood of what their actions looked like. Really stunning. For a company that marketed itself as one of the few digital service providers that consumers could trust, I just don't understand how they acted this way at all. Either there will be heads rolling at management, or Apple takes a permanent hit to consumer trust.

> I just don't understand how they acted this way at all. There's a simple answer to this right? Despite everyone's reaction, Apple genuinely believe this is a novel and unique method to catch CSAM without invading people's privacy. And if you look at it from Apple's point of view that's correct: other major cloud providers catch CSAM content on their platform by inspecting every file uploaded, i.e. total invasion of…

Apple inspects every file on the local device Before its uploaded. It’s just pinky promise only matched with the on device database when an upload is intended.

Re: Apple defends anti-child abuse imagery tech after claims of ‘hash collisions’

#146

Post by CubsFan1060 »

petersellers wrote: post #133
CubsFan1060 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it can be turned off. https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/05/apple-csam-detection-di...

Only if you disable iCloud photos completely. So no, you cannot turn off the feature unless you stop using iCloud photos.

Correct. I'm not sure how that's a distinction from "you can't turn it off" though. I believe they've been doing this scan server-side for quite some time already.

Re: Apple defends anti-child abuse imagery tech after claims of ‘hash collisions’

#147

Post by mrkstu »

endisneigh wrote: post #115
xadhominemx wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of the slippery slope arguments have already been possible for nearly a decade now with the cloud. Not only has it been possible for a decade, it’s been happening for a decade. Every major social media company already scans for and reports child pornography to the feds. Facebook submits millions of reports per year.

Yes, exactly. This is honestly nothing new.

This is new for Apple's customers. And its new in that the device you bought and paid for is nosing through your files.

Apple is introducing a reverse 'Little Snitch' where instead of the app warning you what apps are doing on the network, the OS is scanning your photos. Introducing a 5th columnist into a device that you've bought and paid for is a huge philosophical jump from Apple's previous stances on privacy, where they'd gone as far as fighting the Feds about trying to break into terrorist's iPhones.

Re: Apple defends anti-child abuse imagery tech after claims of ‘hash collisions’

#148

Post by shapefrog »

kzrdude wrote: post #132
duxup wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kinda amazed. I mentioned I was thinking of moving from an Android phone to Apple soon, somewhat privacy related. My friends lectured me on "they're scanning your photos" ... meanwhile they share their google photos albums with me and marvel about how easy they are to search ... Maybe we (humans) only get outraged based on more specific narratives and not so much the general topics / issues? I don't know but they…

Isn't there a small difference between these? A) They scan everything I have released to google photos B) They scan everything that exists on my device Psychologically, you'll feel a difference in what you accept between the two, I think

> B) They scan everything that exists on my device

No ... They scan everything that I have released to apple photos that exists on my device.

Same scan - different place.

Re: Apple defends anti-child abuse imagery tech after claims of ‘hash collisions’

#149

Post by slg »

carnitas wrote: post #145
helen___keller wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just don't understand how they acted this way at all. There's a simple answer to this right? Despite everyone's reaction, Apple genuinely believe this is a novel and unique method to catch CSAM without invading people's privacy. And if you look at it from Apple's point of view that's correct: other major cloud providers catch CSAM content on their platform by inspecting every file uploaded, i.e. total invasion of…

Apple inspects every file on the local device Before its uploaded. It’s just pinky promise only matched with the on device database when an upload is intended.

Apple controls the hardware, software, and cloud service. It was always a pinky promise that they wouldn't look at your files. I don't know why we should doubt that pinky promise less today than we did a month ago.

Re: Apple defends anti-child abuse imagery tech after claims of ‘hash collisions’

#150

Post by bobthepanda »

heavyset_go wrote: post #136
bobthepanda wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least Google does. https://protectingchildren.google/intl/en/ > CSAI Match is our proprietary technology, developed by the YouTube team, for combating child sexual abuse imagery (CSAI) in video content online. It was the first technology to use hash-matching to identify known violative videos and allows us to identify this type of violative content amid a high volume of non-violative video content. When a match of…

No, that happens on Google's servers and isn't an agent in my pocket that runs on and invades my personal property. It's also only for videos.

The images being scanned are the ones that go to iCloud.

The Google page has a section later down that also says they use hashing of images.

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