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Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

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Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#361

Post by deelowe »

Ensorceled wrote: post #172
deelowe wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends. Are certain groups disproportionally more likely to benefit from said accusations? Sorry, it needs to be said. It's easier to take one side of an argument when it's less likely to affect you personally.

What are you actually claiming here? You stance is unclear.

That this is a contentious topic with biases on both sides. One group clearly benefits from any accusations being squashed before ever being investigated. Another benefits from never having to prove their accusations hold merit.

This is why due process is important.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#362

Post by ksec »

hughrr wrote: post #7

That’s end game. Now you can use it for targeted attacks against innocent people. This needs to be shut down and disposed of immediately. There is no other outcome which is socially acceptable for Apple. I feel vindicated now. There are a lot of people saying that I’m insane as I’ve dumped the entire iOS ecosystem in the last week. But Craig was busy steamrolling out the marketing still only a couple of days back abo…

I actually want Apple to stand ground and implement this feature. Like you said the double down on PR and marketing was enough for me. I may not be dumping all iOS and Mac for now. But it was "the" definite signal and evidence this is no longer the old Steve Jobs's Apple. It is like watching Mark Zuckerberg talking about privacy when he doesn't understand anything about it. ( Or more like he has a different understand of privacy than most people )

If they stand ground it makes the decision a lot easier for others. If they dont they will continue to use the boiling frog tactics.

After all they dont think they are wrong and they are still righteous. And It would be far more interesting to see how the world folds. The whole computing market, Google, Apple and Microsoft are currently operating with a moat that is literally impenetrable. This will be a small push towards a new world of possibilities.

Yes. I really hope they stand ground. I wish I won the lottery I could put a few million into the Social Media echo chamber to support this. Or you know, cough certain Apple competitor could do this.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#363

Post by sandworm101 »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #325
sandworm101 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a normal random person, a grey man. In the real world, a single collision could be enough for the police to acquire further access to people they are already looking at. If the police want access to your phone for other reasons (drugs, taxes, illegal speech) they can use that one collision to get a warrant which will give them greater access. It is akin to cops wanting to search a car. They don't need a warrant.…

Since, as I have read, Microsoft and Google already do this, where are all the illicit cop take-downs? I have not heard of any.

They are scanning images on online accounts, stuff that is stored on their systems and system files on machines (files they own). They are not, from what I have read, scanning customer-owned images stored on customer-owned devices.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#364

Post by dgb99 »

hughrr wrote: post #7

That’s end game. Now you can use it for targeted attacks against innocent people. This needs to be shut down and disposed of immediately. There is no other outcome which is socially acceptable for Apple. I feel vindicated now. There are a lot of people saying that I’m insane as I’ve dumped the entire iOS ecosystem in the last week. But Craig was busy steamrolling out the marketing still only a couple of days back abo…

can someone upvote me please? I need to add my account to my keybase profile.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#366

Post by falcolas »

shapefrog wrote: post #122
icelancer wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, grey noise will never pass for CSAM and will fail that step. Never? You sure that one or more human operators will never make this mistake, dooming someone's life / causing them immense pain?

I can guarantee nobody will see the inside of a courtroom, on charges of possession and distribution of child porn for possessing multiple images of grey noise (unless there is some steganography going on).

One does not need to go to court to have their life ruined by accusations. Ironically, there's quite a few examples of this over the years for alleged CSAM.

One example that sticks out in my mind is a pair of grandparents who photographed their grandchildren playing in the back yard. A photo tech flagged their photo, they were arrested, and it took their lawyer going through the hoops to get a review of the photo for the charges to be dropped.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#368

Post by MisterSandman »

endisneigh wrote: post #308
kemayo wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup! It's a legitimately crazy default. Edit: Though, to be fair, the specific hash-collision scenario would be that someone could send you something that doesn't look like CSAM and so you wouldn't reflexively delete it.

If it doesn’t look like it wouldn’t a human reviewer disregard it once it gets to that point? Personally I don’t really see the issue.

We don't know how the human review is going to work. Countries with fewer resources are going to find it easier to just arrest/detain any suspects, instead of spending time and money on figuring out which reports are true.

All you have to be is accused of CP for your life to be destroyed. It doesn't matter if you did it or not.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#369

Post by falcolas »

robertoandred wrote: post #360
falcolas wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the algorithm and list will be on your phone, and can (has, per TFA) be extracted.

You cannot extract or reverse the CSAM hashes. They've been encrypted and blinded using server-side-only keys. If TFA said that, it's lying.

One does not need to reverse the CSAM hashes to find a collision with a hash. If the evaluation is being done on the phone, including identifying a hash match, the hashes must also be on the phone.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#370

Post by sweetheart »

short_sells_poo wrote: post #354
JKCalhoun wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just insert a known CSAM image on target's device. Or maybe thirty. You have to surpass the threshold. Also, if Twitter, Google, Microsoft are already deploying CSAM scanning in their services .... why are we not hearing about all the "swatting"?

Who cares that Bad Company XYZ already well known for not caring about customer privacy does it? Wouldn't you want to push back against even more increasing surveillance? Apply was beating the drum of privacy while it was convenient, wouldn't you want to hold their feet to the fire now that they seemed to do a U-turn?

Their point is that the attack vector being described isn’t new, as CSAM could already be weaponized against folks, and we never really ever hear if that happening. So the OP is simply saying that perhaps it’s not an issue we need to worry about. I happen to agree with them.
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