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First town in America to ban new gas stations

theguardian.com

71–80 of 124 posts

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#71
post #19
post #2

We all know that to combat climate change sacrifices will need to be made like fewer cars and smaller houses (for compact, accessible cities). I can't see the US ever being willing to make these sacrifices though. If you compare the $/sqft for housing in the US vs. Europe the difference is shocking (even in big cities like Seattle vs. London), same for gasoline prices, etc. The US has become accustomed to unparallele…

I don't think you can reasonably compare "European" house sizes using London as an example. The UK is small and ancient. We literally don't have the land necessary for building big houses in cities. There wasn't much land to start with, and changing the use of land that's had buildings on it for 1000 years is incredibly hard. The same is true, with less of a supply limitation, for most cities across Europe. Houses we…

> The UK is small and ancient. We literally don't have the land necessary for building big houses in cities.

British cities like London would have plenty more space if they built up, even slightly. Comparable European cities have 4-8 story apartment buildings in the inner city; London quickly becomes single houses.

> There wasn't much land to start with, and changing the use of land that's had buildings on it for 1000 years is incredibly hard.

Most of London is much, much younger than that. London expanded in the late 19th century, as railways and metro lines were built.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#72
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We all know that to combat climate change sacrifices will need to be made like fewer cars and smaller houses (for compact, accessible cities). This statement is tinged with the idea of sacrifice and loss that is unfortunately one of the hallmarks of the environmental movement. How about this? We can have an emissions-free future that is much more awesome than now with the same size cars and homes. Rewiring America…

It would be great if you were right. But even assuming it's the case, people will have to adjust to the electrical appliances. People in this very community say that they simply cannot learn to cook on an electric stove, or rent a car for the infrequent occasions when they want to travel hundreds of miles, and therefore fossil fuel usage must be continued unabated. Even this level of very small sacrifice is unimagina…

Aren't stoves unique among gas appliances in that people prefer them over their electric counterparts for reasons other than cost to operate? Couldn't we reduce residential natural gas use by like 90% just by replacing all of the gas water heaters, clothes dryers, and furnaces with electric equivalents?

(Note: I personally like induction stoves the best. I'm not arguing that gas stoves are a good thing, just that we can get 90% of the benefit for only like 10% of the whining by leaving them alone for now.)

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#73
post #22
post #2

We all know that to combat climate change sacrifices will need to be made like fewer cars and smaller houses (for compact, accessible cities). I can't see the US ever being willing to make these sacrifices though. If you compare the $/sqft for housing in the US vs. Europe the difference is shocking (even in big cities like Seattle vs. London), same for gasoline prices, etc. The US has become accustomed to unparallele…

American houses are absolute shite. Americans think they have nice houses because Americans are the least-informed people history has ever known.

What an ignorant and ironically completely uninformed statement of your own. Keep you biases, stereotypes, and outright bigotry off this site please. Travel to a favela, travel throughout Africa, even look at the building quality of houses in Japan…there’s no comparison.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#74
post #32
post #2

We all know that to combat climate change sacrifices will need to be made like fewer cars and smaller houses (for compact, accessible cities). I can't see the US ever being willing to make these sacrifices though. If you compare the $/sqft for housing in the US vs. Europe the difference is shocking (even in big cities like Seattle vs. London), same for gasoline prices, etc. The US has become accustomed to unparallele…

> The US has become accustomed to unparalleled comfort and luxury, with central air conditioning… Heat pumps are probably the most efficient way we have to both cool AND heat a house. This is especially true when combined with solar panels and smart thermostats.

Yeah, but like most advances in efficiency, it's not used to take less, it's used to take more. Heat pumps could be used in combination with good insulation and good practices to keep houses more comfortable. A few degrees warmer in the winter, a few degrees cooler in the summer. But that's not what happens. Americans use air conditioning to keep their houses cold. People who aren't used to it end up wearing jumpers inside in the summer. No doubt in the winter the heat pump would be used to keep the house warm enough to be naked at all times. Add to that bad insulation and no amount of heat pump efficiency is going to stop the wasted energy.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#75

Lots of towns have already done this. Berkeley did it years ago. It doesn't matter at all. The fact that Berkeley bans certain land uses means that the town next door, Emeryville, falls prey to fiscalization and simply makes their whole urban strategy be making money off of encouraging all the things Berkeley bans. The effect is that there are probably more gas stations than Emeryville than there would otherwise be i…

Is this pattern named ?

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#76
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American houses are absolute shite. Americans think they have nice houses because Americans are the least-informed people history has ever known.

What an ignorant and ironically completely uninformed statement of your own. Keep you biases, stereotypes, and outright bigotry off this site please. Travel to a favela, travel throughout Africa, even look at the building quality of houses in Japan…there’s no comparison.

Yes, that standard American rebuttal. We have better houses than in a favela. We have better health care than Eritrea. Our transportation is better than Kazakhstan … oh shoot, wait, they have more high speed rail than the USA. Scratch that.

I’ve lived in Japan and their housing is far superior. It is newer in general, well-built, quiet, warm, efficient, comfortable, functional, and cheap. American housing stock is none of those things, at twice the price.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#77

Lots of towns have already done this. Berkeley did it years ago. It doesn't matter at all. The fact that Berkeley bans certain land uses means that the town next door, Emeryville, falls prey to fiscalization and simply makes their whole urban strategy be making money off of encouraging all the things Berkeley bans. The effect is that there are probably more gas stations than Emeryville than there would otherwise be i…

Is this pattern named ?

Virtue signaling to unseen consequences. (VSUD)

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#78
post #11

“Single data point observed — is this a trend?”

When it comes to city planning, changes aren't made unless there's already a trend. A town isn't going to just decide out of the blue to ban new gas station construction unless there was already a trend away from ICE vehicles.

Deciding to ban something you don't like and then actually going through with it because you're rich enough to afford to shoot yourself in the foot or the people negatively affected are small/powerless enough is "wealthy suburb chock-full-o'-busybodies" 101.

Banning gas stations is just the California equivalent of a suburb in North Carolina banning a litany of alcohol related businesses.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be great if you were right. But even assuming it's the case, people will have to adjust to the electrical appliances. People in this very community say that they simply cannot learn to cook on an electric stove, or rent a car for the infrequent occasions when they want to travel hundreds of miles, and therefore fossil fuel usage must be continued unabated. Even this level of very small sacrifice is unimagina…

Aren't stoves unique among gas appliances in that people prefer them over their electric counterparts for reasons other than cost to operate? Couldn't we reduce residential natural gas use by like 90% just by replacing all of the gas water heaters, clothes dryers, and furnaces with electric equivalents? (Note: I personally like induction stoves the best. I'm not arguing that gas stoves are a good thing, just that we…

Well, maybe, but maybe not. Seems like they've been seized on as a wedge issue for natural gas, and if people "must" have them then we "must" maintain a whole natural gas infrastructure for them and can't limit its use for new construction. According to this article, a fair amount of effort goes into astroturfing the cause: https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2021/06/how-the-foss...

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't matter at all That's not true: it will cause an inconvenience to Berkeley residents using gas-powered vehicles. It's not definitive, but it has an effect on stimulating energy transition.

I'm sure the gas stations in Emeryville are very happy that the residents of Berkeley have to burn all that extra gas to drive to the big box stores outside of town.

Now imagine more cities starting passing these laws. Gee, before you know it, it's less trouble to have an electric car.
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