Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model • Hacker News Board

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#231

Post by whimsicalism » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

ralfn wrote: post #149

Ensorceled wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All criminal accusations, including true ones, should be treated as false until the accused is proven guilty. No, they need to be treated as unproven, a very critical difference. Just to be clear, witness testimony, including testimony FROM THE VICTIM, is evidence of the crime. Just for some reason, in rape cases, we go all wonky with this principle.

1. By the public at large it should not be treated in any regard, false or not. 2. The state is the only authorized monopoly of violence and they should treat unproven and untrue as identical, and the only place where that decision is made is in a courtroom. 3. The 'believe the victims' activists however are rightfully (IMHO) suggesting to break principle #2 because there is institutional and systemic supression of t…

Sorry, don't see how 3 in your "syllogism" is remotely true. If 10 employees of yours come to you and accuse another employee of sexual harassment and you fire that employee, at no point were you acting as the state or using violence.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#232

Post by dylan604 » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #204

st_goliath wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 7. Apple reviewer.... This part IMO makes Apple itself the most likely "target", but for a different kind of attack. Just wait until someone who wasn't supposed to, somewhere, somehow gets their hands on some of the actual hashes (IMO bound to happen eventually ). Also remember that with Apple, we now have an oracle that can tell us. And with all the media attention around the issue, this might further incentivize…

Do you think Apple might perhaps halt the system if the script get wide publication?

I've only seen Apple admit defeat once, and that was regarding the trashcan MacPro. Otherwise, it's "you're holding it wrong" type of victim blaming as they quietly revise the issue on the next version.

Can anyone else think of times where Apple has admitted to something bad on their end and then reversed/walked away from whatever it was?

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#233

Post by Grustaf » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #225

Grustaf wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you mean. If we are talking about Apple's new feature, they will not even be alerted until you have enough matches. And the police probably won't be using any neural hashes if they have access to your device, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

That is an Apple current policy, not any sort of law. If the FBI wants to know if there are any collisions on a particular phone, that will be shared. If the FBI wants to know of all single collisions, that too must be shared. A corporation's internal policy decisions are nothing when faced with a government official carrying a warrant. If they have data indicating possible crimes, no matter how small, they can be fo…

Well of course if you believe that FBI can ask Apple to share anything and they will agree, and not tell us, then what is even the point of this discussion? Then they already have access to every photo, every email, every text. Because Apple controls those apps on your phone.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#234

Post by whimsicalism » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

deelowe wrote: post #169

Ensorceled wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, rape is more difficult to prove than a number of other crimes. That is no reason to jump to a default "assume the accusation is false".

Depends. Are certain groups disproportionally more likely to benefit from said accusations? Sorry, it needs to be said. It's easier to take one side of an argument when it's less likely to affect you personally.

Yes, generally powerful men disproportionately benefit from accusations that a rape claim is false.

No doubt some are false, but have not seen any evidence suggesting the majority are false.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#235

Post by plutonorm » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

newsclues wrote: post #108

First CP. Then leaked or unauthorized nudes will get filtered. Filters for terrorists, and terrorist imagery or symbols. Start scanning for guns and drugs. Drug dealers and criminals get added to the list. How long before before it’s dissidents, political opponents, and minorities in dictatorships? How long before Tim Cooks CP filters are used against LGBT groups abroad?

This is the real danger here. Covid made them bold, it set them up as a judge of content passing through their systems. Now they are consolidating themselves in that role. A boot stamping on a human face for all eternity.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#236

Post by Grustaf » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #232

Grustaf wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think Apple might perhaps halt the system if the script get wide publication?

I've only seen Apple admit defeat once, and that was regarding the trashcan MacPro. Otherwise, it's "you're holding it wrong" type of victim blaming as they quietly revise the issue on the next version. Can anyone else think of times where Apple has admitted to something bad on their end and then reversed/walked away from whatever it was?

Do you really care what they "admit"? I thought you were worried about innocent people being framed. Obviously if a way to frame people gets widespread, Apple will stop it. They don't want that publicity.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#237

Post by jnsie » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

Crontab wrote: post #144

newsclues wrote: post #108

First CP. Then leaked or unauthorized nudes will get filtered. Filters for terrorists, and terrorist imagery or symbols. Start scanning for guns and drugs. Drug dealers and criminals get added to the list. How long before before it’s dissidents, political opponents, and minorities in dictatorships? How long before Tim Cooks CP filters are used against LGBT groups abroad?

> How long before before it’s dissidents, political opponents, and minorities in dictatorships? Siri: "You seem to be having unpatriotic thoughts. We are dispatching someone to help you."

By dispatching someone you presumably mean “ok, I found this on the web”?

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#238

Post by quenix » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #191

user-the-name wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have access to darknet child pornography trading networks? I don't.

OK, now I'm curious. How does darknet stuff actually work? Is there some darknet search engine that you access over Tor and type whatever illegal thing you seek such as "child porn" or "stolen credit cards" or "heroin" or "money laundering" into and it points you to providers of those illegal goods and services reachable over some reasonably secure channel? Or is it one of those things where someone already using a p…

Hmm. Tor onion addresses are generally super long and have a large random element to them, such as

facebookwkhpilnemxj7asaniu7vnjj.onion

where the "Facebook" part is there for convenience and may likely not be present for actual illegal addresses. As such, you probably won't be able to find a CP website unless you actively brute force the entire onion address space.

I don't know how the sharing actually happens, but I don't think a real search engine for the dark net exists. There are websites that try (Ahlia, I think?) but they are super limited in scope.

I suspect addresses for drugs and CP are shared person-to-person.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#239

Post by tpush » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #74

sitharus wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the person would have to accept and save an image that when looks enough like CSAM to confuse a reviewer…

My WhatsApp automatically saves all images to my photo roll. It has to be explicitly turned off. When the default is on, it's enough that the image is received and the victim has CP on their phone. After the initial shock they delete it, but the image has already been sent to Apple, where a reviewer marked it as CP. Since the user already gave them their full address data in order to be able to use the app store, App…

> [...] Appla can automatically send a report to the police.

Just to clarify, Apple doesn't report anyone to the police. They report to NCMEC, who presumably contacts law enforcement.

Re: Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

#240

Post by chitowneats » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #52

brigandish wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may have attracted less downvotes if the phrasing was changed to "Yes, just like false accusations of rape , it doesn't matter that you prove it was false afterwards." I also think that those downvoting you might've applied the principle of charity and taken the best interpretation of what you've written or at least ask .

All criminal accusations, including true ones , should be treated as false until the accused is proven guilty. This is a fundamental tenet of human rights in western, small-l liberal free societies. The fact that this is controversial these days is literally insane to me. The consequences of throwing this fundamental system out the window is that you get the sort of nonsense that happened with Assange, where he was l…

The West has largely abandoned "small-l" liberalism. Not yet formally in many cases but defacto in terms of government actions and the views of the people.