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Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

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Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#211

Post by illiac786 »

oritron wrote: post #35
wsinks wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dang, Webex is still that bad for you? Is it because you're using company's instances where it's more locked down and they're on older code? I know it's not perfect, but it's pretty reliable for me (and full disclosure, I work for a different subsidiary of Cisco - but I also try to be pretty critical of it since I'm close to it) I don't use Zoom a ton, but I've experienced what feels like a similar amount of sluggish…

I found Webex to be quite a lot worse than Zoom in my limited experience. I attended a few IEEE presentations hosted on the platform. Audio didn't connect smoothly and needed a few restarts. The talk was constantly interrupted by a chiming noise whenever a person joined or left the meeting. I remember finding a configuration setting for this but the hosts didn't see my message (another bad feature), as this was a mee…

this entry beep is a typical example of security vs. usability. The entry beep is meant for everyone to know if someone joined, even if they have joined using a phone only. It is also configurable. I think it was a huge mistake from cisco to make it a default though, the security benefit is too small. In the latest version is is now automatically disabled after 25 participants I believe, so they heard the feedback (took their time though).

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#212

Post by hrjfjjfjfjd »

KronisLV wrote: post #42
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #6

Offer a comparable alternative, then. I spend half my day on meetings either internally or with clients, and every time I have to jump on a client meeting with Microsoft Teams/Google Hangouts/WebEx/GotoMeeting because their company bans Zoom, it's a recipe for a fruitless meeting. Someone will fumble the sharing controls; screens will take forever to present; at least one person's microphone will become inaudible, st…

> Offer a comparable alternative, then Here's a few: - https://meet.jit.si/ which you can also self host https://github.com/jitsi - https://bigbluebutton.org/ which you can also self host https://github.com/bigbluebutton I've found that they're especially useful, when integrated with Rocket.Chat https://rocket.chat/ which you can also self host https://github.com/RocketChat That way you have an experience that's a lo…

BBB was a mess. It's security and privacy may be great on paper (open source, self hosted). But that's the lawyer's side.

In practice: BBB had server-side mute, so your muted microphone would still send audio to the server. Servers could be compromised through uploaded documents (processed by LibreOffice).

The biggest problems might have been fixed by now. But self hosting half baked software isn't an alternative to most.

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#213

Post by illiac786 »

cycomanic wrote: post #157
Krasnol wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is irrelevant because those who knew about those are not the significant majority which is responsible for the success of zoom

So the point is not that zoom was better UX wise, but simply had better marketing, or not?

Zoom certainly invested millions in marketing before and during the pandemic. Airports were plastered with zoom advertisement. I truly believe marketing and a simple ordering process account for a huge part of zoom's success, not features or UX.

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#214

Post by illiac786 »

version_five wrote: post #162
sombremesa wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoom has fixed the UX in this business, which is the one thing that matters most™, and which is why they will continue to be successful. It's like a restaurant which has the absolute best food by a mile, so they remain in business despite the cockroaches and unfriendly waitstaff. Most customers don't really care about privacy and security, they just want to pretend, and as long as they can easily pretend they're happ…

Many of the replies to your comment have the "No wireless, less space than a nomad" vibe" People seem to nitpick or claim equivalence between individual features, but like you say, Zoom was the sea change toward mass videoconferencing.

completely disagree. The pandemic was the sea change toward mass videoconferencing. Zoom just surfed the wave significantly better than others, thanks to good marketing and a simple ordering process. (Ordering Webex has gotten better but I dare you to order it back in 2019 for example...)

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#215

Post by illiac786 »

markshepard wrote: post #190
sombremesa wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoom has fixed the UX in this business, which is the one thing that matters most™, and which is why they will continue to be successful. It's like a restaurant which has the absolute best food by a mile, so they remain in business despite the cockroaches and unfriendly waitstaff. Most customers don't really care about privacy and security, they just want to pretend, and as long as they can easily pretend they're happ…

Honestly airsend ( https://www.airsend.io ) works better than Zoom . Airsend can join meetings without creating accounts (God send for interviewing job candiy). With all the Zoom dark ui patterns galore, UX is confusing for new users. Zoom forces desktop app and quality has come down also. Now Teams and Meet are even better than Zoom.

Zoom, Webex, Google, all offer guest joining without creating an account, you need to check your facts.

I agree that zoom pushing the desktop app is bad though.

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#216

Post by illiac786 »

lrvick wrote: post #183
ramimac wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: Have worked with many smart folks who now work at Zoom. I agree that Zoom has had numerous security and privacy failings. I think it is important to color the characterization of their security teams with a timeline however. Looking at that gist - the majority of the content predates the conclusion of the "90 day security plan" [1]. The team, and product no doubt, has changed immensely in the past year. T…

It is easy to say "we are better now, we promise". They straight up lied about security features like e2e for years, and leadership is still mostly the same. They only started seriously hiring in security because they got caught over and over and over. I have worked with companies with some of the best security people in the world who had no cooperation from engineering to roll out basic risk reductions like code rev…

I agree that company culture is something that goes top down and you do not change by simply swapping out the security team. Zoom has (had?) a culture of wilful negligence, taking dangerous shortcut (they are the only company whose mess Apple had to fix themselves with security patch for god sake – I still can't believe this one actually), etc.

I might be pessimistic but I don't think such a culture is something you can correct very easily, because it is anchored at the very top of the company.

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#217

Post by illiac786 »

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #6

Offer a comparable alternative, then. I spend half my day on meetings either internally or with clients, and every time I have to jump on a client meeting with Microsoft Teams/Google Hangouts/WebEx/GotoMeeting because their company bans Zoom, it's a recipe for a fruitless meeting. Someone will fumble the sharing controls; screens will take forever to present; at least one person's microphone will become inaudible, st…

- "You can't marry your sibling."

- "Offer a comparable alternative then"

See the problem with this approach?

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#218

Post by zelphirkalt »

gregsadetsky wrote: post #170
saddlerustle wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like all apps that are "just" WebRTC, jitsi doesn't work well on networks with persistently high packet loss. A VC app needs to work reliably 99.99% of the time, not just 99% of the time.

Agreed. I suggested Jitsi to a few university professors early in the pandemic last year. They used it for a good 6 months, with classes of about 20 people, 2-3 times a week. The experience of not having to login and fuss with accounts was great. However, when everyone had their cameras on + screen sharing, audio quality typically suffered. These professors since moved on to use Zoom and it’s way more stable. I don’t…

This is basically trading one reliability issue for another. The one chosen by the professor is reliable in excluding some students, the ones who actually care about their privacy, from the conferences.

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#219

Post by tentacleuno »

pmontra wrote: post #199
acdha wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zoom was the very first to let people join meetings without a) signing up; and b) downloading anything I find your second part interesting because for years Zoom has tried to force you to download their client — you have to learn how to construct the web URL to generate links to use it in a browser since they removed the option from their web UI. > I'm not sure whether you're arguing that Zoom did not have 10x bett…

I used Zoom yesterday after months and I had to download the client. I was in hurry because a customer sent me a link so I didn't investigate much. They usually make calls on Slack which works well and already has all of their conversations. WebEx used to be a nightmare with a Java client. Maybe it's better now but I didn't use it for years on a computer. I had an Android tablet with the WebEx app and I used that. Lu…

> Teams has a mandatory download AFAIK, I got a customer that uses it. It works well once started. I have no idea if I can start a call without an Office 365 account. I remember that it asks me to login to that customer's Office.

I've had to use Teams in an educational environment for around two years, and thankfully it's never forced me into downloading their (frankly dodgy[0]) desktop client.

It's always required a login to O365 for me. They try and manipulate you into using the app with their constant "Get the app" splash screens, though.

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#220

Post by rrdharan »

Ansil849 wrote: post #194
rrdharan wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it provides end to end encryption (After lying about it for years) https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/08/zoom-to-pay-85m-... Theranos-level of “fake it til you make it” and they actually did make it…

> (After lying about it for years) Correct. But currently, as far as is known, they actually do provide it. Which, practically, is what matters because other than WebEx there are no comparable alternatives that I'm aware of.

Jitsi: https://jitsi.org/e2ee-in-jitsi/
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