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A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

outsideonline.com

361–370 of 428 posts

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#361

What shocks me most with this story is that there is a vaccine (Lymerix), and it's pretty effective (76-92 percent after three injections) but apparently some anti-vax propaganda and a class-action lawsuit essentially removed it from the market. Based on a very rare side effect. Wtf? How can that be? Just tell people the risks of side effects, and if they are ok with that risk then the manufacturer is off the hook. I…

Why don't they understand the pathway for the side effect and figure out a diagnostic test for it so people who're hesitant/worried (or everyone does it to protect everyone from the side effect) so they can be screened out from getting the vaccine then?

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#362

What shocks me most with this story is that there is a vaccine (Lymerix), and it's pretty effective (76-92 percent after three injections) but apparently some anti-vax propaganda and a class-action lawsuit essentially removed it from the market. Based on a very rare side effect. Wtf? How can that be? Just tell people the risks of side effects, and if they are ok with that risk then the manufacturer is off the hook. I…

Not even proven side effect. Just something that might be theorized to be the effect of the vaccine. It's really haunting that exactly the same FUD that tanked safe and efficient Lyme vaccine hinders covid vaccines adoption. And people wonder why companies that make covid vaccine wouldn't budge on being exempt from litigation on the basis of percieved side effects.

Yet they don’t have such an exemption for penicillin, or aspirin, or any other similar drug.

The liability shield is precisely why I am Covid-vaccine hesitant. And Pfizer’s track record of honesty when it comes to their drugs is significantly bad. Combine that with the aggressive attempts to silence even a discussion of the vaccine’s side effects makes me extremely skeptical. When “everybody” says something is “safe and effective” and the people profiting “bigly” from that something while also being shielded from literally any liability… Well, that’s enough to make me zig when others zag.

A simple arthritis drug advertised on TV has to disclose the litany of side effects — so extensive as to be comical and yet even mentioning Covid vaccine side effects can get you silenced on social media — something is just very wrong about that. You want me to vaccinate my four kids just because the government says “trust us?” Nope. I’m a grown up. I also have a scientific research background. But when even scientific papers get removed (specifically pre-Covid papers on masks and influenza,) then I’m even more likely to mistrust the “experts.”

To be clear (not that I should have to,) I don’t have the Covid vaccine, but I have all sorts of others. So do my kids. I have vaccines covering everything from Yellow Fever to Japanese Encephalitis and everything in between. But this current vaccine effort reminds me too readily of the anthrax vaccine they were giving us in the Army in the early 2000s. All sorts of neurological issues were reported in many soldiers — often so bad they had to leave the military. And then, as now, it was “safe and effective.” And a rotavirus vaccine in 1999 was pulled from the market because of a rare but serious side effect. Yet the Covid vaccines have a much higher instance of rare but serious side effects compared to that, but everyone is running around saying that the benefits outweigh the risks. Mathematically, for my age and health, that just isn’t true. Ans it’s certainly not true for most healthy children. My point isn’t to debate the vaccine though, my point is to call attention to how the debate is censored. I could very much be wrong in my concerns. Or I could be right. But the fact that we can’t even have a discussion about it is the real problem. We could also apply this to masks. Calling attention to the lack of RCTs and the over-reliance of observational studies gets you branded as an anti-science caveman extremist. Musing as to why control groups were vaccinated (thus destroying long term safety and efficacy data points) also make you an outcast.

What we are seeing isn’t science. It’s politics wrapped in an appeal to authority. The effort to over-censor literally everything contrary to Faucian doctrine has backfired and created a significant group of resisters who, frankly, have little trust in governments.

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in CT. Had it 4 times, only got the bullseye once. It is no joke, and as you get older it seems to suck more and more. Last time I had numbness in my face as the only symptom, but...thrice bitten, fully paranoid, and I was treated pretty fast. One thing which is important with a vaccine is that when I was a kid (early 90s) the rate of ticks carrying lyme was in the 10% range or less, while now it is >50%. A…

How do you manage to get it so often? I live in an area that is endemic to Lyme, but it's something that can easily be avoided (much easier than Covid). But I do see reckless behaviour all the time as well, so maybe it is not that surprising.

3 of the times I was under 15. I liked to play in the woods and did yard work. I used deet, etc, but I guess was just unlucky. The last time I was 22, had just moved back to CT from college and got a tick while mountain biking. I noticed it when I checked, but I guess it had been on long enough.

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#364

What shocks me most with this story is that there is a vaccine (Lymerix), and it's pretty effective (76-92 percent after three injections) but apparently some anti-vax propaganda and a class-action lawsuit essentially removed it from the market. Based on a very rare side effect. Wtf? How can that be? Just tell people the risks of side effects, and if they are ok with that risk then the manufacturer is off the hook. I…

There’s some more info about that vaccine that might interest you. https://www.historyofvaccines.org/index.php/content/articles...

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd qualify that: "...we can expect them to have more informed opinions, on average, _for any random condition_, than non-doctors." The thing I think you're missing is that the resources to do good, deep research on a condition do exist, and the sufferer has very strong motivation to do that research and become very well informed in the etiology and treatment options. The doctor, less so. They have a lot of patients…

The English language has a serious deficiency in the term "research". You can do "research" by spending your days in a lab, formulating hypotheses, doing experiments, reading related academic work, drawing conclusions, publishing their findings. You can do "research" by googling, reading blog posts and wikipedia articles, watching Youtube videos, following telegram links and possibly reading a popular-science book. T…

> they are more educated in the medical field than the common patient and have context.

Pompous credentialism.

This is a hacker forum. Are people outside of universities unable to learn computer science, applied math, sw dev? Sure, biomed is a different field, but that’s all it is. A different knowledge base, there are more and more biomed hackers out there too, not to mention quite a few patients are PhDs and MDs themselves.

Geez, from your words patients are simply all permanently dumb as bricks and unable to ever learn, where as MDs always know more than patients, despite having never ever done any actual research in their entire training and subsequent career.

Nice set of preconceived notions and biases there, fellow researcher.

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#366
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 8 years of oral antibiotics Holy cow. That is a frightening amount of time to have to take those.

And a prime recipe for antibiotic resistance to develop. If an MD prescribed antibiotics for that long a continuous time period, they should lose their license.

Did you see the scientific evidence of persisting spirochetes after repeated courses of antibiotics?

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2021.6280...

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in CT. Had it 4 times, only got the bullseye once. It is no joke, and as you get older it seems to suck more and more. Last time I had numbness in my face as the only symptom, but...thrice bitten, fully paranoid, and I was treated pretty fast. One thing which is important with a vaccine is that when I was a kid (early 90s) the rate of ticks carrying lyme was in the 10% range or less, while now it is >50%. A…

How do you manage to get it so often? I live in an area that is endemic to Lyme, but it's something that can easily be avoided (much easier than Covid). But I do see reckless behaviour all the time as well, so maybe it is not that surprising.

As someone with a dog, I can say it is not easy to avoid ticks. Even with canine medication they pick one or two up every time we go for a hike, ON the trail.

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#368
post #304
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 76-92 percent after three injections That's not a lot. Like sure if herd immunity was on the table it might have been, but lyme has an animal reservoir. Like if I had 76% immunity I would still panic every time I saw a tick, so then what is the point?

That's in the ballpark of pretty much every effective vaccine ever deployed. They are never 100%. This misconception seems to have gotten prevalent with COVID and the mRNA vaccines being "only" 90-95% effective. That is staggeringly good, better than most.

> mRNA vaccines being "only" 90-95% effective

Against alpha...

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China did exactly this. It worked decently for them.

The more of the world that does it, the better it works for everyone.

The data is not clear on this. Places that did no lockdown like Sweden have been pretty well off, other places that did heavy lock downs like NYC have not fared as well.

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both small mammal and large mammal hosts are required in the deer tick lifecycle. White-footed mice are the most common host for the small mammal portion (but there are many options), and deer are the most common host for the large mammal portion. Deer are easier to count and control than mice/voles/moles/chipmunks/etc. So controlling deer populations is more likely to be successful in breaking the deer tick lifecycl…

Coyotes have been introduced in the east in the past. They generally don't kill healthy adult deer (maybe), but they do kill a decent number of fawns. They aren't enough to fully control the population, especially in the suburbs. The advantage of going after the mice is that they can use crispr to give them immunity. It could be used on deer, but would probably have more push back. Tick tubes have already been shown…

Yep, coyotes are not pack hunters in the way that wolves are.

Interestingly, the coyotes in the US East are apparently hybrid "coywolves". They are larger than western coyotes, but still not big enough to take down an adult deer, and they still do not hunt in packs.

If you have a large area to cover, Tick Tubes(tm) can get expensive. You can make your own pretty easily for about 1/20th of the price: toilet paper rolls, cotton balls, and Permethrin diluted to ~3%.

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