Helvetica Now Variable • Hacker News Board

Re: Helvetica Now Variable

#71

Post by smitop » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

alberth wrote: post #46

mikedc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, "typefaces", ie. the shapes of the letters, generally are not. "Fonts", ie. the programs that draw the letters, are copyrighted as software, as something of a workaround. For more reading on the history here Typographica has a succinct overview[0]. [0] https://typographica.org/on-typography/copyright-protection-...

Silly question, so how do type foundries prevent someone from literally copying the TTF, WOFF, EOT files - and then rebrand a font as their own? Will the bits/bytes of a TTF be different if two people produced identically the exact same shape of the letters? EDIT: let me clarify a bit. The GP said that the shape of the letters is not copyrighted in the US. Which implies to me that if Helvetica has the exact shape of…

If you trace each letter of a font to create a new font, you are creating a new font "program", even if your new "program" is very similar to what you would get from just copying the file. The traced font would have a different colour than the copied font. (https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23)

Re: Helvetica Now Variable

#72

Post by alberth » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

mikedc wrote: post #67

alberth wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silly question, so how do type foundries prevent someone from literally copying the TTF, WOFF, EOT files - and then rebrand a font as their own? Will the bits/bytes of a TTF be different if two people produced identically the exact same shape of the letters? EDIT: let me clarify a bit. The GP said that the shape of the letters is not copyrighted in the US. Which implies to me that if Helvetica has the exact shape of…

Users agree to a EULA which stipulates how they can and can't use the font. This contract provides the legal basis on which a foundry would pursue someone for suspected misuse. Here's Monotype's EULA for Helvetica Now[0], Section 9 specifically addresses copies and derivative works. From there, it becomes a legal matter. [0] https://www.fonts.com/font/monotype/helvetica-now/licenses#

But how can you differentiate a Helvetica created font file from a font file where I manually traced every Helvetica alphabet identically.

Re: Helvetica Now Variable

#73

Post by tomrod » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

mikedc wrote: post #34

knowledge-clay wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typefaces should not be copyrightable. Print ones are not, it makes no sense that digital ones are.

In the US, "typefaces", ie. the shapes of the letters, generally are not. "Fonts", ie. the programs that draw the letters, are copyrighted as software, as something of a workaround. For more reading on the history here Typographica has a succinct overview[0]. [0] https://typographica.org/on-typography/copyright-protection-...

Point stands. These ought to not be royalty driven.

Re: Helvetica Now Variable

#74

Post by LegitShady » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

krapht wrote: post #55

Santosh83 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying for products per se is not a problem. What always becomes a problem are stuff like unfair pricing, surge pricing, extortionate rates and fees backed up by monopoly/DRM/regulations, recurring subscriptions or ever increasing rates for the same product with no meaningful improvement and so on. Fonts can be sold but pricing calculated per page view and device just strikes me as a bit too much. Why not just sell t…

Why are so many formerly desktop applications sold individually per major version now sold as subscription services delivered online through the browser? The answer is the same.

greed and overreach? lack of alternatives? lock in?

Re: Helvetica Now Variable

#75

Post by StevePerkins » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

todd3834 wrote: post #18

Am I crazy for expecting fonts to be free? There are so many good options that I can use without paying a license fee. I can't imagine liking the tiny differences in a font so much that I would get myself locked into a yearly licensing fee.

I don't know about expecting them to be FREE. But sometimes I have to laugh at the licensing terms I see on some fonts.

I have a weird fascination with fonts. They're pleasing to look at, and interesting to compare. But come on. At the end of the day, pretty much 95+% of contemporary fonts are trivial little tweaks to Garamond, Baskerville, Helvetica, Century, or some other font that hasn't been novel for centuries.

What people are paying for are the most subtle of cues, to make their text subconsciously distinguishable from the next magazine or marketing campaign. For a few years, until the new font becomes old-hat or commonplace, and needs to be revamped again to keep your brand subconsciously fresh.

Obviously there is commercial value in this, or else people wouldn't pay the amounts that they pay for fonts. But I don't understand why we lionize font designers the way the we do.

Re: Helvetica Now Variable

#76

Post by vmladenov » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

klaussilveira wrote: post #8

Helvetica just gives me warm feelings. For the other type freaks lost around here: https://www.hustwit.com/helvetica/

The fact that it’s nearly 70 years old and is still an influential “modern” font is amazing to me. It just feels right.

Re: Helvetica Now Variable

#77

Post by kube-system » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

Noxmiles wrote: post #12

flowerlad wrote: post #9

Fantastic font, now infinitely malleable! Unfortunately it is expensive, and you can't just buy it and use it, you have to renew the license annually. https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/mti/helvetica-now-variable?tab... And my use case isn't even covered: include in a web application that will be downloaded and installed by customers. My current choice is OpenSans https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Open+Sans

How does this work? Normally I download and install TTF files and install them on my computer. How are licensed fonts work? Is there some kind of proprietary installation?

Copyright licensing is entirely a legal construct. Some people attempt to make DRM to enforce it, but it's certainly not a requirement.

For example, if you visit my webpage, your computer will download the copyrighted text from it and save it in your cache.

Re: Helvetica Now Variable

#78

Post by rebuilder » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

First impression: wow, they aced the execution on this advertising. Just the right level of cheeky.

2nd impression: Did they intentionally put the white monotype logo on a mainly white animated header so it kind of disfigures the font shown therein? Surely that can’t be a mistake!

Re: Helvetica Now Variable

#79

Post by addaon » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

alberth wrote: post #72

mikedc wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users agree to a EULA which stipulates how they can and can't use the font. This contract provides the legal basis on which a foundry would pursue someone for suspected misuse. Here's Monotype's EULA for Helvetica Now[0], Section 9 specifically addresses copies and derivative works. From there, it becomes a legal matter. [0] https://www.fonts.com/font/monotype/helvetica-now/licenses#

But how can you differentiate a Helvetica created font file from a font file where I manually traced every Helvetica alphabet identically.

Font cloning is a thing.

Font tracing is usually done by printing out the character to be traced at very large scale -- I've seen about 12" x 12" -- and placing it directly on a large digitizing tablet. A sequence of strokes / points is collected for the outline of the character, and then curves of somewhat reduced degree are fit to those strokes / points to both reduce font data size and reduce the impact of errors, inaccuracies, and quantization in the data capture.

Even at this huge scale, and with this amount of effort, the outline of your character will be very close to -- visually identical to! -- the starting character, but not exact. As a result, the generated font program will be quite different. For example, it may use a different number of control points for equivalent curves.

Now, one can imagine automating this process differently: Take a font file, digitally render each character, perturb it a small amount, and resynthesize the strokes to generate a new, different program for a visually identical font. This is generally against the terms of service for the initial font, however, which would make it a legal matter...

Re: Helvetica Now Variable

#80

Post by jjeaff » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

alberth wrote: post #72

mikedc wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users agree to a EULA which stipulates how they can and can't use the font. This contract provides the legal basis on which a foundry would pursue someone for suspected misuse. Here's Monotype's EULA for Helvetica Now[0], Section 9 specifically addresses copies and derivative works. From there, it becomes a legal matter. [0] https://www.fonts.com/font/monotype/helvetica-now/licenses#

But how can you differentiate a Helvetica created font file from a font file where I manually traced every Helvetica alphabet identically.

I suppose if you manually traced Helvetica letters, then they might have a case for misusing their font. After all, there isn't a licensing option that allows you to use the font as a template.