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A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

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Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#271

Post by nawgz »

koheripbal wrote: post #268
wildmanx wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It wasn't "very rare" and the side effect was that it literally gave people lym disease. Again, 59 of 1.4 million. I call that "very rare". About half a million Americans get Lyme from ticks, every year. You do the math. Even if there is a causal connection to the shot (which has not been established) then that's still orders of magnitude lower than the risk of actually getting the bacteria in you if you somewhat f…

hmm... we need to compare rates of infection, not raw numbers since only a small number of the population ever received the lime disease vaccine, and both populations reside only in part of the US. In any case, I agree with the underlying point that it's a travesty that the vaccine was taken off the market due to fear-mongering and unproven allegations. It's a testament to the failure of the judicial system to protec…

That is what was done.

> The arthritis incidence in the patients receiving Lyme vaccine occurred at the same rate as the background in unvaccinated individuals. In addition, the data did not show a temporal spike in arthritis diagnoses after the second and third vaccine dose expected for an immune-mediated phenomenon. The FDA found no suggestion that the Lyme vaccine caused harm to its recipients. [0]

[0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#272

Post by tablespoon »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #248
wildmanx wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for being critical. I'd find it terrible if side effects are just ignored. I wouldn't take any vaccines if that's the case. But in this case, the facts are on the table. There is no scientific basis in pulling the vaccine from the market. But there was enough propaganda to stoke so much fear that everybody got scared and that was that.

Yep - and I live in Minnesota, I've had Lyme's before but it thankfully was an obvious rash that taking strong antibiotics for a few weeks took care of. I would take it if I could.

> Yep - and I live in Minnesota, I've had Lyme's before but it thankfully was an obvious rash that taking strong antibiotics for a few weeks took care of. I would take it if I could.

Yeah, me too. I got Lyme's (in my backyard) and just finished up my treatment a few days ago (only 10 days of doxycycline). I had the rash, but now I'm concerned that some infections don't show one. I'd jump at a vaccine in a heartbeat.

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#273

Post by DetroitThrow »

inter_netuser wrote: post #141
freshpots wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you also a big fan of the scam Dr. Sponaugle and the multitude of forums about chronic Lyme, and consider those charlatans scammers the truth? https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7jk9q/rick-sponaugle-pots-c... Edit: Is Lyme-literate another term you and your internet friends use? Look at the case against him: https://mqa-internet.doh.state.fl.us/MQASearchServices/Healt... Scam Dr's like this are causing the FUD you…

Take a look here: https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/628045/fneur-12-6... These are spirochetes in the brain/spine of a dead patient. She had proven lyme diagnosis in the past, has been given the standard treatment and had good response(!), only to relapse, never recover and went on to develop neurological issues years later, and died. The brain was donated and autopsied. Full study: https://www.frontiersin.o…

I had recently read a paper by a professor in Stanford Psychiatry that made very exaggerated claims that would go on to not be replicated to the degree originally made, which I had expected as the treatment used was not a major improvement on the existing methods and that researchers from even prestigious universities might be incentivized to not investigate or report the full truth if they might benefit from it in some way.

While it's interesting that the treatment was "successful" and that symptoms continued, this isn't really a strong statement of support for something like Chronic Lyme Disease or at least its widespread presentation - much more likely a statement of support for Lyme Disease bacteria not always being treated by the regimen, or potentially even that it's easy for someone to get a second infection and have no significant immunity.

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#274

Post by Quinner »

garyrob wrote: post #222
yodsanklai wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd encourage anyone interested to do their own research. The scientific consensus today is what is stated in the linked wikipedia article. There are lot of myths around Lyme disease. https://eu.delawareonline.com/story/sponsor-story/nemours/20... Myth #5: Lyme disease can have debilitating, lifelong effects. Fact: When treated with antibiotics, Lyme disease, at any stage of presentation, is curable. Myth #6: My chil…

I know where you're coming from. I believe it is the appropriate attitude in discussing misinformation with, for example, covid. BUT I really did do my own research with respect to Lyme, reading deeply into the peer-reviewed literature, and I came to the conclusion that the "scientific consensus" was formed by people too lazy or misguided to read it themselves. For example, the consensus was that Lyme couldn't persis…

A decade ago Lyme disease landed me in the hospital with carditis and neurological issues. I still worry that my brain doesn't work as well as it used to, but I don't have symptoms severe enough to make me seek out additional treatment (yet).

It should be noted that while there is some evidence that Disulfiram has effectiveness against Lyme, it's not yet well-studied and the incidence of significant side effects, particularly neurological side effects, during treatment is high enough that I wouldn't risk it. Both the risks and benefits haven't been studied enough to quantify, though I'm glad it worked well for your family.

Source on high incidence of side effects: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7184924/

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#275

Post by adrr »

tablespoon wrote: post #252
hitpointdrew wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but apparently some anti-vax propaganda and a class-action lawsuit essentially removed it from the market. Based on a very rare side effect. Wtf? How can that be? It wasn't "very rare" and the side effect was that it literally gave people lym disease. Why are vaccinations a political thing now, and if anyone raises any questions whatsoever on any vaccine they are "anit-vax".

> It wasn't "very rare" and the side effect was that it literally gave people lym disease. It sounds like it didn't actually do that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Vaccination : > Subsequently, hundreds of vaccine recipients reported they had developed autoimmune and other side effects. Supported by some advocacy groups, a number of class-action lawsuits were filed against GlaxoSmithKline, alleging the v…

Same thing happened to silicone breast implants. Lots of class action lawsuits claiming leaking silicone caused health issues. Lawsuits bankrupted Dow Corning. There was no evidence that it caused issues and you can still get silicone implants today.

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#276

Post by DetroitThrow »

garyrob wrote: post #222
yodsanklai wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd encourage anyone interested to do their own research. The scientific consensus today is what is stated in the linked wikipedia article. There are lot of myths around Lyme disease. https://eu.delawareonline.com/story/sponsor-story/nemours/20... Myth #5: Lyme disease can have debilitating, lifelong effects. Fact: When treated with antibiotics, Lyme disease, at any stage of presentation, is curable. Myth #6: My chil…

I know where you're coming from. I believe it is the appropriate attitude in discussing misinformation with, for example, covid. BUT I really did do my own research with respect to Lyme, reading deeply into the peer-reviewed literature, and I came to the conclusion that the "scientific consensus" was formed by people too lazy or misguided to read it themselves. For example, the consensus was that Lyme couldn't persis…

>Note that there is a theory gaining traction recently that Alzheimer's is caused by the brain's attempts to manage active infections.

I think it's always been noted that Alzheimer's risk can increase significantly after certain infections. I don't think this really takes out the genetic component and other environmental components to be contributors, though, and I've not heard much on the front of it being the primary contributor of Alzheimer's risk.

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#277

Post by im3w1l »

wildmanx wrote: post #236

What shocks me most with this story is that there is a vaccine (Lymerix), and it's pretty effective (76-92 percent after three injections) but apparently some anti-vax propaganda and a class-action lawsuit essentially removed it from the market. Based on a very rare side effect. Wtf? How can that be? Just tell people the risks of side effects, and if they are ok with that risk then the manufacturer is off the hook. I…

> 76-92 percent after three injections

That's not a lot. Like sure if herd immunity was on the table it might have been, but lyme has an animal reservoir. Like if I had 76% immunity I would still panic every time I saw a tick, so then what is the point?

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#278

Post by alfon »

Any reason why this injection of OspA Monoclonal Antibodies wouldn't help in late disseminated Lyme disease?.

My understanding is that very tough cases of neurological Lyme disease often benefit greatly from IVIG. Wouldn't this be a more targeted version of IVIG?

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#279

Post by abfan1127 »

acdha wrote: post #250
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between vaccine skeptic and anti-vax. Imagine if we didn't have people watching over our tech industry because that would be anti-tech, or our banking industry because that's anti-bank. No, we call them skeptics because we realize that's very different than someone who says "abolish tech and banks."

The thing is, we have that process at multiple levels from peer-review and the many stages of government approval and it's rigorous to the point that people have questioned whether it's causing problems due to delays and costs preventing development of vaccines for less widespread diseases and increasing costs. COVID-19 has provided a great example of how well this process works: even the emergency use authorizations…

The process has its flaws. Poorly designed drugs make it through the FDA process. Blind following is foolish. Skepticism is healthy. I don't get software updates as soon as available because, even with the testing, peer reviews, flaws still happen.

Further, there were big political and financial reasons to push the vaccines through. Those are all conflicts of interest. Pfizer had millions of doses manufactured before approval. If trial results didn't look good, they certainly had the incentive to "massage" the results to get it approved and get those millions of doses sold rather than a huge loss.

As the original poster shared, it should be a considered a reasonable position to be skeptical of small scale results. Pfizer's position appears to have scaled well (Moderna as well). 100s of millions of doses across diverse populations show its relative safety and efficacy.

Re: A shot to prevent Lyme disease could be on its way

#280

Post by ralusek »

im3w1l wrote: post #277
wildmanx wrote: post #236

What shocks me most with this story is that there is a vaccine (Lymerix), and it's pretty effective (76-92 percent after three injections) but apparently some anti-vax propaganda and a class-action lawsuit essentially removed it from the market. Based on a very rare side effect. Wtf? How can that be? Just tell people the risks of side effects, and if they are ok with that risk then the manufacturer is off the hook. I…

> 76-92 percent after three injections That's not a lot. Like sure if herd immunity was on the table it might have been, but lyme has an animal reservoir. Like if I had 76% immunity I would still panic every time I saw a tick, so then what is the point?

The point would be that every time you see a tick, you could be 76-92% less worried.
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