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Economic costs of war

watson.brown.edu

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Re: Economic costs of war

#561
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or not? Maybe it’s China’s turn to burn trillions in Afghanistan.

China is likely to gain trillions from their belt and road initiative expanding into Afghanistan and from getting involved with the mining of the $3T in mineral resources identified previously in Afghanistan. China has already recognized the new Taliban government and the Taliban previously welcomed a new relationship with China that would protect Chinese interests, as they put it. China literally met with the incomi…

China will get access to the natural resources at a fraction of what US spent in Afghanistan all these years. More discussion in this podcast episode: https://jingle.fm/p/tabadlabs-dragon-road-1570336991/s01-e08...

Re: Economic costs of war

#562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afghanistan will be busy waring itself. For the past 20 years they probably recruited off the fact that dirty Americans were occupying their glorious country. Now that they're gone, it'll be a straight civil war. They'll be too busy attacking each other. Now that the US is gone, the people who blindly followed will realize that the US wasn't the one in the way of their magical muslim Utopia, and life sucks more than…

It's really going to break our hearts when they just have a relatively peaceful and increasingly prosperous nation...

As if we can allow that to happen. My guess is some CIA backed Afghani Death Squad can go on murdering sprees causing unrest, so we can I told you so roll eyes 'savages'.

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/12/18/cia_death_squads_afg...

Re: Economic costs of war

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sometimes handy to define tradeoffs as a "question of money" and understand through this that things have costs. Fighter jets don't manufacture themselves. The metal to make guns is smelted in blast furnaces built and maintained by men and materials that someone paid for, using fuel someone paid for, and those people who were paid didn't do it for the decimal(2) value of the dollars involved, they did it for the…

I feel like most of the resources needed for healthcare already exist as part of the current system. It's simply a matter of policy and how it's paid for. But I am not an expert and could be missing a key point.

Well, health care services are an ongoing expense. You pay doctors twice a month. Doctors expect to buy new things sometimes, not just "resources that already exist".

And it's fine to say "society can afford " in isolation — we obviously have spent the money on the war, we obviously have spent money on health care. It's a question of trade-offs and whether spending money on the war is worth it. And that's really an awful lot of money to have spent on a war.

The risk we see today with money is that we're trying to make a lot more of it and we might find that it doesn't mean the resources we expected. Weekly earnings in the US are up $16/wk since January — but adjusting for inflation they're down $9/week.

Re: Economic costs of war

#564
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate change will destabilize the world more than any "terrorists" could. Also would've been nice to have seen 6.4 trillion go into renewables tech and investments ~ 20 years ago.

We were literally a couple hundred votes from Gore 20 years ago. How different our world would have been today with a climate focused presidency two decades ago. 9/11 would have probably came and went without fanfare like most terrorist attacks, much less spurred invasion of two countries.

9/11 really wasn't the sort of thing that passes without getting any "fanfare".

Re: Economic costs of war

#565
post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We weren't occupying or administering Iraq, but we didn't leave, either. I mean, we never left Germany or S. Korea, so... Playing big brother to Q8? I'm not mad. Like other countries, we can pick sides and aid whatever side we think has our interest. I'm not interested in intervening with infantry and all the necessary materiel unless it's to defend ourselves from grave danger. Especially avoid stupid the boondoggle…

> Not everyone wants democracy right now. Have you looked up polls of Afghanistan’s citizens on whether they want a democratic election process, whether they preferred life under the Taliban, etc? They overwhelmingly preferred the state of things under the US’s support and overwhelmingly support democracy. They can’t fight for it because they fear being shot or beheaded by Taliban terrorists. To read their lack of re…

Twenty years of support was not enough? Did they need 100? If it doesn’t work within 2-5 years, it’s not going to work. Cut your losses and run.

Maybe there was some support for this in some areas of Kabul, but certainly not in the countryside.

Re: Economic costs of war

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't that we can't afford to mitigate climate change. We cannot mitigate climate change, period. In other words, you could throw all the money on the planet at it and it would not make a dent. No purported solution passes the math and physics tests. It's easy to make a mess. This can be done with very little energy, resources and time. On the other hand, cleaning-up the mess takes far more energy, time and resour…

Especially true given water vapor is a more potent ghg increasing with each upward temperature tick, in a way that's not linearly reversible from linear co2 reduction. Probably the only way that could potentially fix things is direct temperature manipulation schemes. There's a lot of them that have been proposed. Worth noting that the major economies in Asia aren't doing much of anything tangible for co2 reduction. T…

> Point is entrepreneurs should focus on direct temperature manipulation at this point if we really want to solve the problem.

While I appreciate your perspective, the hard and cold reality of the situation is that it is illusory to think we can affect something of this magnitude. Not only is it a planetary scale problem, it is also something that, just from the standpoint of conservation of energy, is impossible for us to address.

The principle is brutally simple. To state it in relevant terms: It cannot take LESS energy to solve a problem than that which went into creating it.

To further lend context, it is important to understand how the planet dealt with this when humanity was insignificant. We have this data going back 800,000 years. This comes from highly reliable ice core atmospheric sample data. Here:

https://cdiac.ess-dive.lbl.gov/trends/co2/ice_core_co2.html

The charts:

https://cdiac.ess-dive.lbl.gov/trends/co2/ice_core_co2.html

And this is my curve fit to try and measure the rate of change:

https://i.imgur.com/37AKa8L.png

And so, in rough terms, it took about 25,000 years for a 100 ppm increase and about 50,000 years for the same decrease in atmospheric CO2 concentration.

Any inquisitive mind would want to know how this happened. How did CO2 concentration increase and decrease? The answers are relatively simple. We were not around (or we were insignificant), so it wasn't humanity, not going back 800,000 years.

The increase, among other things, was caused by massive forest fires rolling through entire continent. Without modern fire fighting technology, these fires burned and rolled through the land constantly. The only thing that would stop them would be running out of fuel or heavy rains.

The decrease was mostly a combination of having burned off enough carbon stores that rains, hurricanes, cyclones --the weather-- over tens of thousands of years, precipitated CO2. Forests grew once more, capturing more carbon...only to burn again at some point and repeat the cycle.

How, then, were we able to influence this in a few centuries?

Again, simple: We burned the equivalent of unimaginably massive forests at a much faster rate than the natural order of things. We did this by burning oil. One gallon of petroleum is said to have required about 100 tons of plants and biomatter. Today we are burning oil at a rate of nearly 100 million barrels per day, or 35 billion barrels per year. One barrel is equivalent to just over 31 gallons. Which means that burning a barrel of oil is like burning 3,100 tons of plants and biomatter. This isn't an exact calculation, of course. It does serve to get a sense of proportion about what we are discussing. The scale is absolutely unimaginable.

And so, while the planet experienced these ~100K year cycles without us around, when we started to use oil we got to the point where we effectively burned the equivalent of entire forests in a single day...every day...every year...for decades, centuries. That's how we were able to change the upward rate of change of atmospheric CO2 concentration.

Reversing it is a very different story. Making a mess is easy. Any fool can light up 30 gallons of gasoline and make an absolute mess. All it takes is a match. In sharp contrast to that --and going back to the concept of conservation of energy-- you simply cannot reverse the process by expending less energy than what it took to create it in the first place. Except that this energy isn't the energy of the match, but rather the energy stored in the 30 gallons of gasoline that went up in smoke. In reality, once dispersed, the byproducts of this combustion are nearly impossible to contain and revert. It would take an unimaginable amount of energy and resources to reverse the effects of 100 million barrels of oil used per day. And we do that each and every day and have been burning this stuff for centuries at an increasing rate.

This isn't to say we should do nothing at all. What I am saying is that we are having the wrong conversations because we have allowed politicians and various forces to make a cult out of this thing. Very little of what is being put out on this every day is true. We can't reverse this in 50 years. We can't do it in a century. This will take tens of thousands of years. In other words, it is likely outside a human time scale.

What to do then? Well, we need to start having the right conversations. We need to start figuring out how to live with this and survive. We are not going to fix it. We need to adapt to it. That's where our technological focus should be, not in magic pixie dust to "save the planet". If we persist, we will not only lose the opportunity to adapt, we will likely risk killing all life on earth through a hairbrained scheme to save a planetary scale ecosystem that we have the hubris of thinking we can control.

Every time I post about this I get eviscerated with downvotes and sometimes comments. And yet, not one person ever takes the time to read and review the sources I provide, go through some super simple math and come back with something like "Hey, I think you missed this point". I want to be wrong about this. Personal insults and downvotes don't serve any purpose at all other than to reveal the intense indoctrination people have been subjected to. Yes, climate change is real. Yes, we made it worse. No, we can't fix it.

Think. Don't be drones.

Re: Economic costs of war

#567
What about the social costs? Vietnam was the start of American mistrust of government.

Now soldiers and their families are learning that all the suffering was meaningless. I’m surprised people still sign up for the military.

Re: Economic costs of war

#568
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think nuclear is not a perfect solution but probably the fastest option we have.

Wind and solar are cheaper and can be brought online as fast as we can build it... Nuclear has massive startup costs and takes a hella long time to build out. Solar efficiency had been undergoing a an exponential (!!!) drop in price per kilowatt hour. Think of it as Moore's law, but for energy. Comparing solar to nuclear at this point is sorta like saying you don't need one of these gosh darned desktop computers when…

> Wind and solar are cheaper and can be brought online as fast as we can build it

I love wind and solar. I built a 13 kW array on our property and will likely expand it to 20 kW next year.

However, even if we deploy the most optimal forms of wind and solar energy at a global scale --forms that have yet to be invented-- this will not be enough to stop or reverse atmospheric CO2 concentration. In fact, even if we do this, it will continue to increase exponentially until such time as the planet --through weather-- sticks its finger on the problem.

This is NOT my conclusion. This came out of a study where Google researchers --who were convinced renewable energy sources was the way to go-- set out to once-and-for-all show the world the path. They were stunned when they discovered just how wrong they were. To their credit, they published the paper and admitted just how wrong they were. This is real science, not hand-wavy stuff. Anyone with the appropriate science background can go through the paper, study the data and reproduce their claims. I certainly did. This paper is what opened my eyes to the nonsense we are being sold. It led to spending over a year trying to understand the reality of the problems we face.

It is well worth reading. Here it is:

https://storage.googleapis.com/pub-tools-public-publication-...

Re: Economic costs of war

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an effective shortage of resources since the capacity to mine for them is not infinite, and production cannot meet demands.

And the metal in space doesn't help us with our current technology. Obviously. "We can't have a metal shortage because there's lots of metal in space" is not the most coherent argument I've heard today...

What I originally said was there's no metal shortage, only the price of metal. We'll be mining the solar system long before we run out of metal on earth. For aluminum, for instance, there's an insane amount in the Earth's crust.

Re: Economic costs of war

#570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wind and solar are cheaper and can be brought online as fast as we can build it... Nuclear has massive startup costs and takes a hella long time to build out. Solar efficiency had been undergoing a an exponential (!!!) drop in price per kilowatt hour. Think of it as Moore's law, but for energy. Comparing solar to nuclear at this point is sorta like saying you don't need one of these gosh darned desktop computers when…

> Wind and solar are cheaper and can be brought online as fast as we can build it I love wind and solar. I built a 13 kW array on our property and will likely expand it to 20 kW next year. However, even if we deploy the most optimal forms of wind and solar energy at a global scale --forms that have yet to be invented-- this will not be enough to stop or reverse atmospheric CO2 concentration. In fact, even if we do th…

Still gotta try, though. Solar is already a great deal cheaper than it was in 2014 when that article was published; by more than 50%, in fact. And there's a new X-Prize for C02 removal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#...

https://www.xprize.org/prizes/elonmusk

There's a number of other pieces of the puzzle that need urgent action. Cleaning up international shipping is a big one which comes to mind... And reducing driving is another big one.

https://phys.org/news/2018-12-cargo-ships-emitting-boatloads...

There's no silver bullet, and we need urgent action on many fronts. But things will be worse if we simply despair and do nothing.

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